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Old 10-01-2014, 09:47 AM
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Zinc additive

Coming from a hot rod diesel background, any time you change cams or even rebuild the motor you are suppose to run a small bottle of zinc additive in the oil for the hardened surfaces. On a competition vehicle it is suppose to be added in every time the oil is changed. Since I have a new motor in the jeep I was wondering what everyone thought of running some when I get the oil changed for first time? What all oil sensors are in the motor other than pressure? Does it sense detergent and/or additive?

Thanks in advance.

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Old 10-01-2014, 10:30 AM
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Re: Zinc additive

I haven't read about any additional sensors. The oil life is calculated based on driving conditions not sensors. I would think anti-wear additives would be less desirable during break-in. It would be interesting to hear from some engine builders on if and when a stock diesel should use an oil treatment. I've only heard of solid lifter motors with aggressive cams using high zinc oils but I'm just an observer. Teach us oh wise one!
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Old 10-01-2014, 11:28 AM
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Re: Zinc additive

Its not just needed in high lift cams. I know lots of people that swear by it for hard and polished surfaces like bearings, cams, and cylinder walls. I know these things aren't turning 6500RPM and making 1400hp but I don't see where it would hurt help longevity of the engine.
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Old 10-03-2014, 05:56 PM
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Re: Zinc additive

I wouldn't add anything to your engine oil as long as it's still under warranty. Who knows you might have an engine problem. Most if not all owners manuals state "don't add anything to the engine oil" First thing they would do if the engine or turbo failed, would be to take a oil sample and send it to the lab to check for any way to get out of paying for the repairs. Just a thought.
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Old 10-04-2014, 06:02 PM
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Re: Zinc additive

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROSKOE115 View Post
Its not just needed in high lift cams. I know lots of people that swear by it for hard and polished surfaces like bearings, cams, and cylinder walls. I know these things aren't turning 6500RPM and making 1400hp but I don't see where it would hurt help longevity of the engine.
Yes it would be great for the engine esp. with high lift cams but you can kiss your SCR catalyst and DPF goodbye as it will "poison" them. Zinc will NOT burn off your DPF. Think of it as "ash". This is why we are required to use low ash oil..it has decreased levels of zincdialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP).
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Old 10-04-2014, 10:10 PM
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Re: Zinc additive

I'll try to answer this simply, zinc/phosphorus make up ZDDP. As an example I went out to a few races with a pro mod team, those engines run 1.000" lift cams with triple valve springs, pressures of 1200lbs open, when using an oil that had a traditional amount if ZDDP it would burn the pushrod tips in 1 pass. They changed to Amsoil Dominator and 8oz of ZDDP, problem solved.

Moving on, traditionally ZDDP is the main anti wear additive, CI-4 oil was the diesel spec 2002-2007 pre catalysts, had zinc in the area 1600ppm. CJ-4 came out in 2007 with the added DPF, zinc was lowered to 1300ppm, but needed group II base oils to obtain the specified wear numbers. Burned oil from normal operation, the zinc will leave an white ash in the catalyst that can't be regen'd out. Our spec oil is basically MB 229.51 zinc level is around 800ppm.

However, the other part that has improved along with emissions is cylinder finish and the piston rings. As oil consumption increases emissions and lowers efficiency of the after treatment.

EPA is now forcing manufactures to not only have a vehicle pass emissions out if the factory, they are now ha of to take vehicles 3 years old, yes GM had to buy a dura max pickup off a used car lot and have it run through the same OEM emission tests and pass, or be forced to impose corrective action ie emission upgrade recall etc.

So the manufactures need a vehicle to pass emissions at all stages.

I would say the main reason behind these specific oil types or MB 229.51 is emissions driven. They are willing to compromise engine wear to offer less contamination of the catalyst. Balancing act.

Im running Shell Rotella T6, many on here cringe at the idea of that but it has t burned any oil!

All these people are concerned it will damage this or that, reality is use your low ZDDP oil, Chrysler spec oil, the bores will wear prematurely will burn oil and cake up the DPF anyway. The Chrysler MS spec oil still has zinc just a lowered amount.

It's catch 22, use your best judgement.

I've worked at dealerships 10 years, specially car dealer they never took an oil sample.


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Old 10-05-2014, 07:11 PM
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Re: Zinc additive

Quote:
Originally Posted by C175 View Post
I'll try to answer this simply, zinc/phosphorus make up ZDDP. As an example I went out to a few races with a pro mod team, those engines run 1.000" lift cams with triple valve springs, pressures of 1200lbs open, when using an oil that had a traditional amount if ZDDP it would burn the pushrod tips in 1 pass. They changed to Amsoil Dominator and 8oz of ZDDP, problem solved.

Moving on, traditionally ZDDP is the main anti wear additive, CI-4 oil was the diesel spec 2002-2007 pre catalysts, had zinc in the area 1600ppm. CJ-4 came out in 2007 with the added DPF, zinc was lowered to 1300ppm, but needed group II base oils to obtain the specified wear numbers. Burned oil from normal operation, the zinc will leave an white ash in the catalyst that can't be regen'd out. Our spec oil is basically MB 229.51 zinc level is around 800ppm.

However, the other part that has improved along with emissions is cylinder finish and the piston rings. As oil consumption increases emissions and lowers efficiency of the after treatment.

EPA is now forcing manufactures to not only have a vehicle pass emissions out if the factory, they are now ha of to take vehicles 3 years old, yes GM had to buy a dura max pickup off a used car lot and have it run through the same OEM emission tests and pass, or be forced to impose corrective action ie emission upgrade recall etc.

So the manufactures need a vehicle to pass emissions at all stages.

I would say the main reason behind these specific oil types or MB 229.51 is emissions driven. They are willing to compromise engine wear to offer less contamination of the catalyst. Balancing act.

Im running Shell Rotella T6, many on here cringe at the idea of that but it has t burned any oil!

All these people are concerned it will damage this or that, reality is use your low ZDDP oil, Chrysler spec oil, the bores will wear prematurely will burn oil and cake up the DPF anyway. The Chrysler MS spec oil still has zinc just a lowered amount.

It's catch 22, use your best judgement.

I've worked at dealerships 10 years, specially car dealer they never took an oil sample.


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Thanks for that, It's very interesting and makes decent sense. You would figure the "tightness" of these motors would eliminate the issue of an ashing problem. An 8oz bottle will be so diluted down it wouldn't cause a problem. With that being said though I can see the issue with it reguardless. You nailed it when you said its a catch 22. The DPF thing is kinda new to me on a vehicle of this format. Most times when I deal with a truck that has a DPF it is being removed. I talked to a few tuners this weekend at world finals that I am good friends with and they both said when the 13+ cummins tunes become easier and the system is better understood they will work on jeep and ram eco diesel software. One has already bought a summit for his wife. So once they get that going and we can delete the guts and not be so restricted on what can be done. The warranty is something I will try to keep as long as I can but I have also seen what an EGR can do to a motor. Time will tell though. Took it on a trip this weekend and it performed a little better than expected.
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