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  #25  
Old 12-23-2009, 08:38 AM
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Re: Rear fog harness knock off!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvis Presley View Post
Yeah great advice to get the man into a lawsuit.


Jason, unless you have a patent on this product, he can sell these. What he did was shitty but I think he is in his legal right to sell these. On the other hand he did say to you that he wont sell those so he may have placed himself in a corner.



With that being said, don't stop making this product. I want one real soon!!!!!
Elvis, I agree with you. Legally, there's nothing technically "wrong" with what he is doing. It's how he went about it. He flat out lied to me. It's my fault for being so naive and told him, but that was only after he promised he wouldn't sell them.

Like he said, it was only a matter of time before someone cut one up and figured out how I did it, but at least they would have had to buy one up front. Plus, he didn't know where to get all the parts and pieces.

Sure, someone could experiment and figure it out, but then I wouldn't call it a knock off cuz they actually had to go through the R&D. This guy bypassed all of that and didn't have to pay a single thing (in time or money) to have a marketable product.

What I do find funny is I think he's beginning to realize that these are pretty labor-intensive. He said three hours to make one. I am well below that. I'd say that if i am making a batch of them, I am probably between 30-45 minutes each.


I AM checking into if there are any repercussions because of his statement that he wouldn't sell them. My father is a lawyer so we are looking into it.
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  #26  
Old 12-23-2009, 08:43 AM
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Re: Rear fog harness knock off!

Quote:
Originally Posted by scjeep4.7HO View Post
I completely agree with you and that guys is a total douche. The only thing I can say is I would take some of his money because you know he is not going to just stop making them so why not at least make something off of it. I know it sucks either way but I really doubt he is going to stop no matter what you do.
Well, we'll see. Like I said, he's realizing that these are pretty labor-intensive. There have been multiple times where I have seriously considered packing it in and just telling people that I don't make them anymore.

What I am considering doing is setting up my own ebay deal and just undercutting him. I mean, right now he is selling his stuff for $135 + $6.95 shipping for a total of $142. I'm selling mine here for $130 shipped. If I just started listing some, I'm sure I'd draw business off him. I'd also put something like "the other seller STOLE my product" in the listing.

I know ebay wouldn't do anything about it, but I wish there was some way to get the word out about what this guy did. Regardless of whether or not it was legal, I'd like to believe that most people would look at what he's done and decide that ultimately it's wrong.
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  #27  
Old 12-23-2009, 09:46 AM
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Re: Rear fog harness knock off!

have you checked into what we had discussed?
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  #28  
Old 12-23-2009, 09:48 AM
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Re: Rear fog harness knock off!

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Originally Posted by boniomario View Post
have you checked into what we had discussed?
Yes, I did. It could get pretty expensive, but I haven't ruled it out. I am still collecting information...
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  #29  
Old 12-23-2009, 09:49 AM
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Re: Rear fog harness knock off!

IMHO that way you can secure your own product and eliminate his, I am not too sure but even if you put in the application before it still legally urs because you applied for it first just a thought
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  #30  
Old 12-23-2009, 12:26 PM
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Re: Rear fog harness knock off!

You are talking about intellectual property rights here. In some cases that goes hand in hand with a patent, in other cases, it stands on it's own merit.

If you are thinking about a patent at this point, don't. It is too late, and iffy at best, likely more appropriate for the use of the resistors in lieu of the dual filament bulb, but I can't believe you were the first there.

Is there a factory harness that does the same thing, here or overseas?

Is this something that was totally dreamed up by you?

If the first is No, and the second is Yes, then you may have grounds to pursue infringement on intellectual property rights. In particular, the e-mail where he admitted the potential to copy what you had done, and his statement that he would not do so.

If this is the case (totally your idea), then I would contact him first, tell him if he does not cease and desist, your attorney will be in contact with him (best to just send him a letter from an attorney), and that you will be contacting E-Bay to have his listings pulled for the infringement. Provide copies of the documentation and a letter from an attorney to them. They act pretty quick when it comes to legal issues.

The reason not to pursue a patent, it became public domain as soon as you started shipping product without having a patent in the works or even a provisional patent granted. So it all becomes what is known as "prior art". Pursue the intellectual property rights, it is a better fit anyway.
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  #31  
Old 12-23-2009, 12:47 PM
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Re: Rear fog harness knock off!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim@NCTSLLC View Post
You are talking about intellectual property rights here. In some cases that goes hand in hand with a patent, in other cases, it stands on it's own merit.

If you are thinking about a patent at this point, don't. It is too late, and iffy at best, likely more appropriate for the use of the resistors in lieu of the dual filament bulb, but I can't believe you were the first there.

Is there a factory harness that does the same thing, here or overseas?

Is this something that was totally dreamed up by you?

If the first is No, and the second is Yes, then you may have grounds to pursue infringement on intellectual property rights. In particular, the e-mail where he admitted the potential to copy what you had done, and his statement that he would not do so.

If this is the case (totally your idea), then I would contact him first, tell him if he does not cease and desist, your attorney will be in contact with him (best to just send him a letter from an attorney), and that you will be contacting E-Bay to have his listings pulled for the infringement. Provide copies of the documentation and a letter from an attorney to them. They act pretty quick when it comes to legal issues.

The reason not to pursue a patent, it became public domain as soon as you started shipping product without having a patent in the works or even a provisional patent granted. So it all becomes what is known as "prior art". Pursue the intellectual property rights, it is a better fit anyway.
Wow, thanks for the excellent response!

I have already contacted him and respectfully requested that he cease and desist, now it sounds like I need to add a little bit more bark to it.

In response to your question, no, the factory does not offer a harness like mine here OR overseas.

And yes, this idea was totally mine.

I also read about the "prior art" provision you spoke of, and my understanding was that you have to apply for one within a year, which is rapidly approaching (Feb).

I will speak with my father (he's an attorney) and get the ball rolling on a letter.

I have already spoken to ebay about the listings, tho we haven't gone into much detail.

Thanks again for the excellent reply!
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  #32  
Old 12-23-2009, 01:10 PM
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Re: Rear fog harness knock off!

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Originally Posted by LipschitzWrath View Post
Wow, thanks for the excellent response!

I have already contacted him and respectfully requested that he cease and desist, now it sounds like I need to add a little bit more bark to it.

In response to your question, no, the factory does not offer a harness like mine here OR overseas.

And yes, this idea was totally mine.

I also read about the "prior art" provision you spoke of, and my understanding was that you have to apply for one within a year, which is rapidly approaching (Feb).

I will speak with my father (he's an attorney) and get the ball rolling on a letter.

I have already spoken to ebay about the listings, tho we haven't gone into much detail.

Thanks again for the excellent reply!
You have to ask yourself if this is really worth pursuing in regards to a patent, and I personally think too many things are "patented" that have no business going that route anyway. The IP aspect is routinely overlooked, and in many cases is more applicable and can have just as much teeth in a legal forum.

Patents are a long and drawn out affair, and you can easily drop $5K to $10K for a simple application. If it is rejected, money is lost. Plus you have expense doing all the research to make sure there is no prior art out there anywhere.

How many SRT-8's are there?

Would this apply to any other vehicles?

Could you ever sell enough to recoup the costs?

To me the harness is an application of technology. Possibly part of that technology "might" be applicable for a patent (the resistor use).

How the harness is put together and how the existing technology is used falls into the realm of IP. It is your idea and research that created it.

Is it an "invention" so to speak?

In my mind, the whole patent process has gotten out of hand, and many things go through that are ideas or applications of technology, not something "new" that is tangible in nature.

You also have to keep in mind the potential cost of trying to pursue enforcement as well in the future.

The patent office is woefully understaffed and overburdened, and they only perform a cursory check in particular for prior art, they expect the applicant to do an exhaustive search, and many do not spend the money. Simply searching on a specific current term or terms may not reveal something done in the past under another name or term, yet it would still be relevant and give rise to a future challenge.

If you choose the IP route, I would put up a website, describe what it is and when it was done, and put a statement on there that it is copyrighted and that infringement would be pursued to the fullest extent of the law.

Then you have something to fall back on as you have put your stake in the ground.
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  #33  
Old 12-23-2009, 01:40 PM
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Re: Rear fog harness knock off!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim@NCTSLLC View Post
You have to ask yourself if this is really worth pursuing in regards to a patent, and I personally think too many things are "patented" that have no business going that route anyway. The IP aspect is routinely overlooked, and in many cases is more applicable and can have just as much teeth in a legal forum.

Patents are a long and drawn out affair, and you can easily drop $5K to $10K for a simple application. If it is rejected, money is lost. Plus you have expense doing all the research to make sure there is no prior art out there anywhere.

How many SRT-8's are there?

Would this apply to any other vehicles?

Could you ever sell enough to recoup the costs?

To me the harness is an application of technology. Possibly part of that technology "might" be applicable for a patent (the resistor use).

How the harness is put together and how the existing technology is used falls into the realm of IP. It is your idea and research that created it.

Is it an "invention" so to speak?

In my mind, the whole patent process has gotten out of hand, and many things go through that are ideas or applications of technology, not something "new" that is tangible in nature.

You also have to keep in mind the potential cost of trying to pursue enforcement as well in the future.

The patent office is woefully understaffed and overburdened, and they only perform a cursory check in particular for prior art, they expect the applicant to do an exhaustive search, and many do not spend the money. Simply searching on a specific current term or terms may not reveal something done in the past under another name or term, yet it would still be relevant and give rise to a future challenge.

If you choose the IP route, I would put up a website, describe what it is and when it was done, and put a statement on there that it is copyrighted and that infringement would be pursued to the fullest extent of the law.

Then you have something to fall back on as you have put your stake in the ground.
EXCELLENT!

I spoke with my dad and he confirmed everything you said. I have sent another (slightly more aggressive) email to him, demanding he cease immediately. We are also contacting ebay and asking them what proof we need to provide for them. It's likely his listings will be removed very shortly.
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  #34  
Old 12-23-2009, 02:11 PM
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Re: Rear fog harness knock off!

excellent news

Tim you're the man!!!
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  #35  
Old 12-23-2009, 02:24 PM
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Re: Rear fog harness knock off!

Okay, he responded to the aforementioned "more aggressive email" I sent him.

His basic response is that the only thing he will cease and desist is contact with me. He goes on further to say:

"Also, all of the conversion harnesses I have been constructing and selling are not COPIED and the ideas are NOT OWNED by anyone. It is called FREE ENTERPRISE that anyone can benefit from and I am sorry you see it otherwise. MY products use different raw materials and are designed DIFFERENTLY than what you construct your products with. I have NEVER physically had one of your harnesses in my possession so there is NO WAY I have copied or stolen anything from you."

He is also welcoming me contacting ebay, because he is confident that his "reputable history" with them is going to protect him:

"If you and your attorney decide to contact EBay I will deal with them directly since I have a very reputable history with them and have never violated ANY of their policies."

However, the icing on the cake was this:

"In addition, I am starting to interpret your emails as harassment and I will pursue criminal sanctions against you if they continue. I also have documentation (emails) from you that has been accusatory, threatening, and slanderous. These are violations of criminal law that I will pursue if necessary."

Punctuated by this:

"This IS the last email correspondence I will have with you regarding this matter."

So basically, all in all, he's telling me to bring it. He wouldn't provide me with his attorney's contact info, but did request that I send him my attorney's info so that his attorney can contact mine "if needed". Which I think we all know, he won't do. I'm starting to doubt this guy even has an attorney.
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  #36  
Old 12-23-2009, 04:38 PM
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Re: Rear fog harness knock off!

Quote:
Originally Posted by LipschitzWrath View Post
His basic response is that the only thing he will cease and desist is contact with me. He goes on further to say:

"Also, all of the conversion harnesses I have been constructing and selling are not COPIED and the ideas are NOT OWNED by anyone. It is called FREE ENTERPRISE that anyone can benefit from and I am sorry you see it otherwise. MY products use different raw materials and are designed DIFFERENTLY than what you construct your products with. I have NEVER physically had one of your harnesses in my possession so there is NO WAY I have copied or stolen anything from you."

However, the icing on the cake was this:

"In addition, I am starting to interpret your emails as harassment and I will pursue criminal sanctions against you if they continue. I also have documentation (emails) from you that has been accusatory, threatening, and slanderous. These are violations of criminal law that I will pursue if necessary.
Well, he used your ideology of the resistor for dual filament bulb functionality, from what I see no one else was making a "harness" to perform the functions that were achieved.

So, in that realm, yes he did copy your idea, he probably saw one of yours and simply wanted to make one for himself to save a few bucks at first. Your e-mails may show that.

This is where the realm of IP comes into play. Regardless of how he is doing it, the "functions" that are achieved are the same. If you were the first, then you have an argument under IP rights.

Accusatory? Yes, he copied something you were doing. Accusations are a basis for any court proceedings, without them, we would have no need for court.

Threatening? Only in the sense that you are "threatening" legal action.

Slanderous? I don't think so, your not out bad mouthing him, calling him a crook, making false accusations, Slander is a real stretch here, one your father should be well versed on as a Lawyer.

I would have no more direct contact, let your attorney handle it from here on out.

It would do well to perform some research and document when you made this "product" available, and when he made his available. This would help in establishing history and validity of your claims.

Depending on the exact wording you used in your conversations with him regarding the resistors and him not producing them, there could be some legal bias toward having made a claim toward a copyrightable product and IP rights to the ideology behind the creation of it. In particular if he made a "promise" not to if you provided him the information.

Best of luck, keep us posted as to the outcome.

I would look at how his is made, materials and methods, and I would make sure mine was better. I would then start selling them on E-Bay and carefully word in the ad that you are the creator of the idea and that yours is the original design (don't refer to his as a knock off or a copy).

I am not sure how yours is made, I make harnesses for my turbo systems and the iEMS3, and I go to lengths to make them as OEM appearing as possible.

One thing I do, is that I never crimp down the end of convoluted tubing on the wiring with a ty-rap, that looks cheesy (I see he does that). I use a very special electrical tape from Germany that is a synthetic material that is "fuzzy" almost like cloth, it is self vulcanizing, and when applied looks like a factory harness, is waterproof, and just looks professional. It also does not get "greasy" or "gooey" like vinyl electrical tape does, and it is designed for a harsh automotive environment.

I would be happy to PM you the name of it (I don't want my competition to know what I use), and I am trying to find a domestic supplier for it in lieu of importing it here to the states.
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