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  #13  
Old 03-27-2010, 07:04 PM
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Re: Hemi ignition change in 2006?

OK, I found the explanation of the two plugs with rats nest wiring.
Why dual spark plugs?

Michael E. Gemmel wrote: “Each cylinder has an ignition coil pack over one spark plug, and a regular plug wire connected to the other spark plug. Further, the coil pack also has a plug wire attached to it that extends to the opposite cylinder bank. It appears that each cylinder shares a coil pack with another cylinder. Each of the two plugs on a given cylinder is fired by a separate coil. One plug has a coil directly attached, and the other is fired via an ignition wire connected to a coil located on another cylinder on the opposite bank. The benefits would be one-half the number of coils (8 vs. 16) compared to each plug having its own coil, and of course less weight.”
“Cryptojoe” wrote: “Being the good Motech Graduate I am, I can say that the extra plug fires during the power stroke to more fully burn the hydrocarbons. Unlike the Japanese systems of the late 1970s and early 1980s, which avoided the use of catalytic converters, the second ignition allows additional power in the down stroke while lowering the need for restrictive catalyst plates in the converter. This increases breathing, adding to horsepower output as well.
“As you may recall, in the 1980s Japanese manufacturers reduced unburned hydrocarbons by placing spark plugs either in the exhaust pipe (which fired with every piston ignition) or in the exhaust manifold (which fired each time their corresponding cylinder fired). Chrysler morphed this idea to include dual fired plugs on each cylinder, which allows the firing to take place closer to top dead center, and then again when the piston is on the back side of the power stroke.”
Patrick added: “This [also reduces] NOx and O3 (ozone) emissions. Full combustion results in heat, water, and carbon dioxide. While a very small amount of NOx emissions are produced, they are only significant during incomplete or partial combustion, due to the lack of available oxygen, high temperatures, and various chemical reactions. That's why catalytic converters have been standard on cars for the past 3 decades. The extra set of spark plugs on the HEMI and on previous engines are designed to reduce emissions BEFORE a catalyst is needed. They add some horsepower, but not very much. The only exception to this rule is on top-fuel dragsters that almost literally 'pour' [COLOR=blue !important][COLOR=blue !important]gas[/COLOR][/COLOR] down the venturis. A single plug can't burn that much gas, regardless of the ignition’s power output.”
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Old 03-27-2010, 11:06 PM
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Re: Hemi ignition change in 2006?

Thanks a lot guys, for the explanation. This makes a lot more sense now and in my mind - given the equipment it came with and what I have - it would be more efficient to have more spark in the same cylinder since the energy only needs to travel a short distance, rather than over to the other side; thus causing more problems with crossfiring and such with the small wires, close proximity to one another and crossing, etc...I understand (now) what they were trying to do and it sounds good and all, but not worth the effort of going long high quality wires ($$) and then trying to separate and keep from crossing over, and all that.

I suppose the biggest question for me then, was if they both fired at the same time (both the outputs on a single coil), and it sound like it does? I guess what confuses me now is what the difference between the conversion (2006) and the "shorty" (2005 with taylors, let's say) method.
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Old 03-28-2010, 09:40 AM
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Re: Hemi ignition change in 2006?

I think the coils are essentially the same, just one (2006>)covers both plugs and the early ones only cover one. It obviously didn't take DCX too long to figure out that it wasn't worth the effort and increased maintenance costs.

Also, I remember now that the two plug firing setup on the 05's was called something like, "the wasted spark" system. If you Google that you'll find better and more thorough explanations than the article I posted above.
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Old 03-28-2010, 11:09 AM
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Re: Hemi ignition change in 2006?

OK, that makes sense now, if they used a coil that had two boots on it, that go right on the plugs, then yeah this shorty method essentially does the same thing then, but without having to buy new coils and I imagine adapter plugs, etc. What confused me was mentioning that new valve covers were required on 2006+. I take it that is more from a physical attachment POV then anything else.

Yeah, my Mitsubishi 4G63 turbo engine uses a waste spark ignition, where it fires both #4 and #2 (for instance) at the same time. When I switched that setup to a coil-on-plug (used 300M coils), it only used 3 wires and was relatively simple to wire. The thing I didn't like about it though was how many times it fires and not 100% how compatible the V-6 coils are in that respect. Also, being a 4 cylinder and capable of 7k + rpm, that's a lot of regeneration!

Well, I learned a lot about this now, thanks guys...and now I know this won't cost me a fortune and keep making the engine bay look better
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Old 03-29-2010, 10:40 AM
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Re: Hemi ignition change in 2006?

I did the complete conversion on my 05 and also upgraded to the MSD dual coils.

Found here:
Escape's Hemi Punisher is running, new pics!
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Old 03-23-2011, 07:29 AM
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Re: Hemi ignition change in 2006?

Hi Guys,

Can I not just cut back the original spark wires and plug them in to the spark plug next to the coil. Do that for each cylinder.
Or am I missing something?
The Low voltage wires need modding? How?
This is the bit I am confused about.
I am in the UK so these kits are not available over here and shipping from states make them expensive.

Thanks in Advance

Paul
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Old 03-23-2011, 11:28 AM
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Re: Hemi ignition change in 2006?

Yes, you can do that. When I did mine on my Hemi LX I didn't want to ruin the stock wires, in case it didn't work. That's why I went and bought a universal set (nearly anyone will do) to experiment with. I took the long boots off the stock wire set (kind of a pain) cut the wires to length, and put long boots on the new set. I don't think you have to worry now, since that system has been around (and works well) for years. When I first tried it, it was new stuff, with lots of controversy on the LX forums. IMO, best way to find out if something works it to try it yourself. Besides, I LOVE TO TINKER!
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Old 04-22-2011, 12:01 AM
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Cool Re: Hemi ignition change in 2006?

Hello Jeepgcoman
I want to get all the wires off my 05 hemi manifold. What is the part number or type of Taylor Short wires you use to clean up the manifold. Is this a easy install ? Do you have pictures of your install.

Thanks
Chris
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Old 04-22-2011, 07:54 AM
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Re: Hemi ignition change in 2006?

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TAY-82641/
they have a couple colors/sizes
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Old 04-22-2011, 02:16 PM
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Smile Re: Hemi ignition change in 2006?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4.whoa View Post
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TAY-82641/
they have a couple colors/sizes
Thanks what does the sizes mean like 8.20mm to 10.mm ? Are theses the ones you used for your Hemi?

ChrisWK
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Old 04-22-2011, 11:30 PM
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Re: Hemi ignition change in 2006?

The 8 vs. 10 mm -from what I've read - is just the overall insulation size of the wire. There are 2 core types 50 & 350 ohm. The 10 mm is for people that want fat wires.
I don't have these yet myself, but its on my list.
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Old 04-27-2011, 08:02 PM
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Re: Hemi ignition change in 2006?

The 2005 and earlier coils fire one plug directly below it and one on the opposite bank, via a plug wire, both at the same time. Each coil is paired with a coil on the opposite bank based on firing order (i.e. 1/6 are paired). So when cylinder 1 comes to TDC on compression stroke coil 1 fires plug 1A and wasted spark to plug 6B. At the same time cylinder 6 is at TDC on exhaust stroke and coil 6 fires plug 1B and wasted spark to plug 6A. Each coil fires once on compression stroke and once on exhaust stroke.

The 2006 and later coils are a dual coil on plug (COP) design without the plug wires. It’s my understanding that they fire on both compression and exhaust strokes as well.

Now as far as the conversion to shorty wires vs. later dual COP coils I made the decision, on my Hemi Dakota swap, to do the latter based on the following:

I've read that it's easier for a coil to fire a plug on the exhaust stroke than on compression stroke. If this is in fact true then the early style coils output wouldn’t have to be as great as for the later dual COP type. This might explain why some high horsepower, nitrous or boosted applications using shorty wires have experienced some misfire issues. The shorty wires are using a coil that wasn’t designed to fire both plugs on the compression stroke. The later dual COP coils were obviously designed to fire two plugs under compression and if you compare the two coil styles the later dual COP coil is much larger. Do they provide more output than the early style coils???
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