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  #13  
Old 06-24-2010, 08:59 PM
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Re: MDS Disable = 2mpg loss

Have you changed your spark plugs recently? I've heard that that can really affect the Hemi's mileage, and since I lost a few mpg over the last month on my Ram for no apparent reason, I'm going to try changing them this weekend and see how it does.
Recommended change interval is 30k miles in the manual.
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  #14  
Old 06-25-2010, 11:10 AM
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Re: MDS Disable = 2mpg loss

Just got back from a round trip 166 mile trip in my 06 Hemi GCO using SC 91 tune, 89 fuel (I am at 2800 ft.) with the MDS turned back on. Used 7.6 gallons.....21.84 mpg with about 16 miles of in town driving. Trip was driven at 65 mph on cruise at altitudes of 2500-4500 ft. in rolling hills. Temp. was in the low 80's. A couple of recent contributors to the better mileage, IMO, are a new EGR control valve (got a light last time I did this trip), and the SC Advanced Trans. Tuning App. with my new settings. Best I've gotten so far is 22.3 over the same route in cooler temps. The trip prior (when I got the EGR MIL) I only got 19.7 mpg, again in slightly cooler temps.

I think anyone that has the Hemi with around 50000 miles (I have about 55000) should either purchase a DashHawk to monitor the EGR, just change the EGR valve (about $50) or start looking for decreased fuel mileage, noticeable low speed surging (which I had), or stalling. I have the DashHawk and after I got the MIL ( DTC P0406) I started monitoring EGR commanded vs. EGR error %age. I had never monitored it before, so I wasn't sure how it should act. Commanded and error %age were rapidly fluctuating very high %ages all over the place. After the EGR valve change commanded and error is very predictable, and so far I've seen a maximum of about 60% commanded with no more than plus or minus 12% error. Bare in mind the PCM is reading and changing this continually depending on engine temperature, trans. gear, throttle opening, and ?? so it changes fairly fast with the sampling, but stays fairly constant at a set throttle opening.

Now I am going to start DashHawk monitoring it on my Hemi LX (43000 miles) and see how it compares.
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Old 06-25-2010, 11:21 AM
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Re: MDS Disable = 2mpg loss

^^^^^^^^^
Interesting... thanks for sharing.

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  #16  
Old 06-25-2010, 12:54 PM
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Re: MDS Disable = 2mpg loss

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepgcoman View Post
Just got back from a round trip 166 mile trip in my 06 Hemi GCO using SC 91 tune, 89 fuel (I am at 2800 ft.) with the MDS turned back on. Used 7.6 gallons.....21.84 mpg with about 16 miles of in town driving. Trip was driven at 65 mph on cruise at altitudes of 2500-4500 ft. in rolling hills. Temp. was in the low 80's. A couple of recent contributors to the better mileage, IMO, are a new EGR control valve (got a light last time I did this trip), and the SC Advanced Trans. Tuning App. with my new settings. Best I've gotten so far is 22.3 over the same route in cooler temps. The trip prior (when I got the EGR MIL) I only got 19.7 mpg, again in slightly cooler temps.

I think anyone that has the Hemi with around 50000 miles (I have about 55000) should either purchase a DashHawk to monitor the EGR, just change the EGR valve (about $50) or start looking for decreased fuel mileage, noticeable low speed surging (which I had), or stalling. I have the DashHawk and after I got the MIL ( DTC P0406) I started monitoring EGR commanded vs. EGR error %age. I had never monitored it before, so I wasn't sure how it should act. Commanded and error %age were rapidly fluctuating very high %ages all over the place. After the EGR valve change commanded and error is very predictable, and so far I've seen a maximum of about 60% commanded with no more than plus or minus 12% error. Bare in mind the PCM is reading and changing this continually depending on engine temperature, trans. gear, throttle opening, and ?? so it changes fairly fast with the sampling, but stays fairly constant at a set throttle opening.

Now I am going to start DashHawk monitoring it on my Hemi LX (43000 miles) and see how it compares.
Wow thats some great info +rep ...I did a little reading about an EGR concept, but still am a little confused. Where is this located on the 5.7L engine? Did you replace the EGR yourself? And if possible, please explain the %'s you listed and what they mean...thanks for any info, I am really interested in this!
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Old 06-25-2010, 06:44 PM
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Re: MDS Disable = 2mpg loss

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepgcoman View Post
Just got back from a round trip 166 mile trip in my 06 Hemi GCO using SC 91 tune, 89 fuel (I am at 2800 ft.) with the MDS turned back on. Used 7.6 gallons.....21.84 mpg with about 16 miles of in town driving. Trip was driven at 65 mph on cruise at altitudes of 2500-4500 ft. in rolling hills. Temp. was in the low 80's. A couple of recent contributors to the better mileage, IMO, are a new EGR control valve (got a light last time I did this trip), and the SC Advanced Trans. Tuning App. with my new settings. Best I've gotten so far is 22.3 over the same route in cooler temps. The trip prior (when I got the EGR MIL) I only got 19.7 mpg, again in slightly cooler temps.

I think anyone that has the Hemi with around 50000 miles (I have about 55000) should either purchase a DashHawk to monitor the EGR, just change the EGR valve (about $50) or start looking for decreased fuel mileage, noticeable low speed surging (which I had), or stalling. I have the DashHawk and after I got the MIL ( DTC P0406) I started monitoring EGR commanded vs. EGR error %age. I had never monitored it before, so I wasn't sure how it should act. Commanded and error %age were rapidly fluctuating very high %ages all over the place. After the EGR valve change commanded and error is very predictable, and so far I've seen a maximum of about 60% commanded with no more than plus or minus 12% error. Bare in mind the PCM is reading and changing this continually depending on engine temperature, trans. gear, throttle opening, and ?? so it changes fairly fast with the sampling, but stays fairly constant at a set throttle opening.

Now I am going to start DashHawk monitoring it on my Hemi LX (43000 miles) and see how it compares.
jeepcoman: I let you handle 08Hemi's question, since I can't monitor the commanded EGR positions question (yet).
08Hemi: You didn't state mileage, but if it's approaching 45-50K, just change it. EGR valve is located lower passenger side in the front of the engine, fwd of exhaust manifold and aft of alternator. Follow the insulated metal tube down from the RHS intake manifold (engine cold, please, or you'll burn your fingers).

I think that the EGR valve has been overlooked as the guilty culprit for many of the sub-standard performance symptoms we have been seeing on the 5.7L HEMI's. Even the Dealer, his Service Manager, and the mechanc didn't believe me until I brow-beat (and embarassed) them into changing it as a warrranty issue. This was my diagnosis, not the electronic monster's. Immediate performance improvement resulted after the EGR valve was renewed. You should do a search and read the EGR threads on how to change it.

Exhaust Gas Recirculation valve puts exhaust gas back into the intake manifold to reduce combustion chamber temperatures, thereby reducing the formation of NOx (nitrous oxides). These are a cause of smog formation. EGR helps OEM's meet EPA emissions standards. It's a 1970's fix (solenoid valve) with upgraded electronic controls.
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  #18  
Old 06-26-2010, 05:35 PM
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Re: MDS Disable = 2mpg loss

I used 3/4 of a tank driving about 130 miles yesterday but it was pretty heavy traffic, it still hurts my wallet. =(
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Old 06-26-2010, 07:41 PM
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Re: MDS Disable = 2mpg loss

Just to know for sure, I re-enabled MDS, and sure enough with 300 miles of driving, my mileage is back up to where it was before I disabled MDS.
Overall, I still think I prefer MDS disabled...

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  #20  
Old 06-26-2010, 08:18 PM
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Re: MDS Disable = 2mpg loss

08Hemi, here's the info. on the EGR valve copied from the shop manual:

OPERATION
GAS ENGINES
Exhaust gas recirculation flow is determined by the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) and is controlled by an electronic EGR valve assembly. For a given set of conditions, the PCM knows the ideal exhaust gas recirculation flow to optimize NOx and fuel economy as a function of the pintle position. Pintle position is obtained from the position sensor. The PCM adjusts the duty cycle of 128 Hz power supplied to the solenoid coil to obtain the correct position. The electronic EGR valve assembly consists of a pintle, valve seat, and housing which contains and regulates exhaust gas flow. An armature, return spring, and solenoid coil provide the operating force to regulate exhaust gas flow by changing the pintle position. The solenoid coil assembly is wired in parallel with a diode that connects two internal connectors.

I changed mine myself. One of these forums has a "how to" with pictures which was handy to learn what I was getting into. The lower mount bolt, where it mounts to the passenger side cylinder head, runs into the back of the alternator just as the threads clear the head. The "how to" showed cutting the bolt to get it out, but I was able to get mine out without cutting it. I installed a shortened bolt with the new valve and next time it'll be a 1/2 hour job, vs. the hour 40 I spent this time.

As far as the %ages go, as the narrative above states, the PCM continuously calculates the amount of EGR needed under all conditions. I haven't looked at the circuitry, but I suspect the voltage is adjusted to open/close the valve the desired amount. The %age error I am guessing is basically a %age of "lag" from the commanded setting, since it is continuously changing. The error is expressed in both a positive and negative %age, as calculated by the PCM. Adjustments are then made to try to keep this %age as low as possible. A constant speed/throttle opening will often momentarily render a zero % error.

What I don't understand is how much this setup can affect engine operation. Just look at the size of the tube (about 3/4 in.) and figure about a 60% opening of the pintle (which is the highest I've seen so far) can't be putting too much exhaust gas into the intake. I dissected the old valve, and it is just as ID'ed in the narrative above. The solenoid coil that controls the pintle position is quite large, which is probably needed to obtain instant and continuous operation. When I get a chance I'll take and post some pictures. Hope this helps a little.
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Old 06-26-2010, 09:15 PM
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Re: MDS Disable = 2mpg loss

that is great info bro, thank you! I am with you, pretty crazy how large of an impact that valve can have! I am thinking that as my warranty gets closer to the end, I will state I have similar issues and hopefully get them to replace it! would that be covered under powertrain warranty or only bumper-bumper?
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Old 06-26-2010, 10:34 PM
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Re: MDS Disable = 2mpg loss

Well, it's part of the emission control system which is part of the powertrain (engine), so I'd think definitely the powertrain warranty. But, beware as Walt said, dealers aren't too fond of you coming in and telling them what needs to be done to resolve a problem. After all, you're not suppose to be smarter than them. That's why these forums are so valuable, IMO. The crossfeed of information, problem solving and resolution is much better than the dealers are privy to, in most cases. Some of the dealer guys on other forums, and perhaps this one too, are active in the forums and are probably way ahead of their counterparts in troubleshooting and problem resolution.

In your case, if they don't hook the Starscan or a code reader to it, you may be able to get away with it. Otherwise they'll probably give you the song and dance that there isn't any problem showing up on their scan. I know Walt has had to do a lot of jumping through hoops to get his dealer to resolve long standing issues. He stayed on their case, probably having to be relentless, and he's finally got his working pretty good now. If you have the time and energy to keep the heat on them you could eventually prevail. His experience shows it can be done.
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Old 06-26-2010, 10:41 PM
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Re: MDS Disable = 2mpg loss

Thinking about this problem (EGR valve), I think when the PCM is commanding a certain setting and the valve is going bonkers, the PCM can't keep up with mixture control, timing, EGR valve %age setting, etc., and that causes the surging and poor mileage. If the valve goes too far open at idle or low RPM the engine will die or run rough. In the old mechanical and vacuum controlled EGR systems, manually opening the EGR valve at idle was the test to see if it was working properly. If it stalled it was working correctly, if it didn't, there was a problem with the EGR system.....valve, vacuum control, etc.
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  #24  
Old 06-26-2010, 10:43 PM
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Re: MDS Disable = 2mpg loss

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Originally Posted by 08Hemi View Post
that is great info bro, thank you! I am with you, pretty crazy how large of an impact that valve can have! I am thinking that as my warranty gets closer to the end, I will state I have similar issues and hopefully get them to replace it! would that be covered under powertrain warranty or only bumper-bumper?
Not covered by any standard warranty other than 3yr/36k miles from my experience. I will tell you that complaining about it and getting action are 2 entirely different situations. Likely, no codes are thrown and that is the principal indicator for warranty replacement. Remember, it is a business; I don't think Chrysler will reimburse the dealer for parts/labor unless there is a demonstrable need. Old parts replaced under warranty are returned to Chrysler for analysis. It's how they find out if components are failing before their time and/or a recall is needed.

Took me almost 6 months to convince them (i.e., the dealer in consultation with the Chrysler area engineering representative) that the sub-standard HEMI engine behavior was caused by a faulty EGR valve. I had to let them go through their own tests first to prove my point. I kept operating logs as objective evidence of my contention. Even the "flight recorder" that was installed for several weeks only showed that MDS was inoperative, but not why. [The answer is that the engine was over the allowable % load for its operating parameters; thus no MDS. An open EGR valve (pintle in Chrysler's words) allows oxygen deficient gas into the cylinder charge, thus lowering the overall available % oxygen and potential output power per stroke. Engine tries to maintain a stoichiometric air/fuel ratio of ~14.7:1.]

As for the EGR tube diameter, the flow is relatively high because you have positive exhaust manifold gas pressure at the inlet and intake manifold vacuum at the discharge. Flow will keep increasing with higher differential pressures, up to the point of "critical flow" from the outlet nozzle. Unlikely that this application is even close to critical flow. [Compressible fluid flow is somewhat different than liquid flow.]

Bottom line recommendation: Change the EGR valve yourself and save the aggravation. An hour spent working on the Jeep is far better than an hour spent arguing, IMHO. The serpentine belt is due for renewal at 60k miles anyway, so do both at the same time!

Long answer for a short question. Hope the explanation helped you.
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