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  #25  
Old 02-23-2012, 01:40 PM
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Re: Valvoline gear oil

^^I look forward to that report.
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  #26  
Old 02-23-2012, 03:08 PM
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  #27  
Old 02-23-2012, 03:42 PM
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Re: Valvoline gear oil

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Originally Posted by dmsfun View Post
First of all, any scientist knows you cannot compare apples to oranges in scientific measurements. The publication referenced above was from studies in Germany done back in 1998 and the conclusions were likely based on an open diff on a RWD vehicle, (German cars are almost all all RWD), not an full time AWD vehicle with 2 ELSD's, plus the testing was done well before Mercedes developed the QDII.
I also have an MS in Physics, and ran a lab the physical characterization lab at Amoco (now BP) research using these tests, and it is under cold temps where there is a noticable difference in viscosity, where there is more resistance to the internal mechanisms. That is why my AMD WK does not coast as well when you let off the accellerator under cold temps, as it does when it is warmed. Experimental proof in my AWD vehicle is the only way to determine this, and what I will find out, between Amsoil and Mopar fluids. If there is or is not any diiffernce, I will report the results, with coasting, and mpg both under cold operation, and fully warmed.
This is becoming far more interesting! I think you are right, the only way to say for certain one way or another is in the real world. Of course, having a scientific background, you will know that whatever your results are (and I do look forward to hearing them!) will not constitute experimental proof. Previously working in a lab you will know that experimental validity is only obtained in highly controlled settings and from large sample sizes, especially if you want to generalize to the population. The original question was if amsoil vs oil X would provide better gas mileage. Not, as you seem to suggest, whether YOU will get better gas mileage with amsoil versus oil X. As a scientist, you will know there are literally hundreds of things that could make your vehicle perform differently from someone elses, and that is not even taking into account the plausibility of experimental bias introduced at the human level. With an "experiment" such as this, you would at least require the operator of the vehicle to be blind to the condition that they are in (which you would not be). Factor in environmental variables, wind direction, driving route, all of which are guaranteed to have a more significant impact on fuel efficiency than gear oil, and the need for the study like the one I provided is painfully obvious.

I am not sure why you are so adamant about the relationship between ELSDs and how this gear oil is going to perform. Under the vast majority of driving conditions, the diff is open and functioning like any differential would, is it not? Why would having an electronically engaged clutch pack change the fluid dynamics? Further, I agree with you, the changes in viscosity will have an impact - just one so small it will be meaningless.


I would suggest the laws of fluid dynamics have not changed fundamentally in the relatively short period of time since the study I quickly pulled up (literally first google hit) was run. Further, even if they had, their results are far more applicable to everyone else reading this forum (regardless of what they drive, and when QDII was developed) than however your test goes. In a scientific study an N = 1 is a casual observation, nothing more. If you look at the standard deviations of the data provided from that study across observations, I would feel safe extrapolating their result to just about any vehicle around, and would certainly prefer it over what some guy says happened.

All of this being said, I agree with you on the fundamentals of what you are saying - I just don't think a blanket statement that changing gear oil to another with equal viscosity ratings will have any noticeable impact on people's gas mileage. If that is why they want to try a different brand, I offer them rational, experimental, logical and methodological arguments that this is not a great idea. Nothing personal, it's just what the data says. If you do get a meaningful increase, wonderful. If not, you know why.

P.S. I would also suggest that a botanist would be well within their scientific right to compare apples to oranges . Apparently, so would surgeons (http://www.bmj.com/content/321/7276/1569.full)

P.P.S. I am sure there is far more preventing your AMD WK from rolling as well when cold as when warm than just gear oil...engine rpms, tire pressure, battery load, transmission shifting patterns, etc., etc., etc., would likely also all vary based on ambient temperatures. Your experiences, though appreciated and thoughtful, do little more than highlight why science is all about narrowing down an experimental paradigm to the variation of a single independent variable of interest and measuring its impact on a dependent measure.
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  #28  
Old 02-24-2012, 09:59 AM
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Re: Valvoline gear oil

Wow, you have wasted an awful lot of time just to argue. If you want to use budget gear oil and feel there is no difference, please go ahead. According to your logic, might as well buy motor oil at the dollar store, whatever cheapest coolant you can find, run 87 octane gas from the cheapest gas station, use generic brake pads and rotors and whatever winshield wipers are on sale, and the lowest price tires there are, since they will all work. FYI, studies show a 6.5 % increase in mpg using Amsoil gear and motor oils in an independant study, and with longer milaege between changes, so I'll be saving money at the pump with the gas guzzling hemi wherever I can.
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  #29  
Old 02-24-2012, 10:20 AM
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Re: Valvoline gear oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmsfun View Post
Wow, you have wasted an awful lot of time just to argue. If you want to use budget gear oil and feel there is no difference, please go ahead. According to your logic, might as well buy motor oil at the dollar store, whatever cheapest coolant you can find, run 87 octane gas from the cheapest gas station, use generic brake pads and rotors and whatever winshield wipers are on sale, and the lowest price tires there are, since they will all work. FYI, studies show a 6.5 % increase in mpg using Amsoil gear and motor oils in an independant study, and with longer milaege between changes, so I'll be saving money at the pump with the gas guzzling hemi wherever I can.
I'm not arguing with anyone, just stating facts, that you adamantly disagree with. These posts have taken no more than 10 minutes of my time, which I don't mind spending out of my day in thoughtful discourse.

I don't see how any of what I said leads to your conclusions about dollar store oil and 87 octane gas from cheap gas stations, etc.

Since it has now gotten to the point that you are FYI'ing "studies" without references (that are almost definitely sponsored by the companies involved and not subject to peer review, though still 'independent') I don't see any use in continuing the discourse.

I really do hope you get all the marketing gurus promise, and am glad people that may be interested in this topic had an opportunity to see two opposing views on an issue that may be of interest.
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  #30  
Old 02-24-2012, 12:50 PM
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Re: Valvoline gear oil

6.5% increase???? I call bullshit on that one!
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  #31  
Old 02-24-2012, 03:17 PM
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Re: Valvoline gear oil

IT is actually 8.2 % increase in this one http://www.smartsynthetics.com/articles/8.2_milage_increase.htm
6.5% in this. http://www.amsoil.com/performancetests/G2904.pdf since this thread was started about Valvoline, Here is how Amsoil compares to Valvolilne
http://www.smartsynthetics.com/articles/8.2_milage_increase.htm
For those who doubt the validity of the tests in the summary report in the earlier link, think again. It does no matter who paid for it, this was done by a certified private testing lab that would be shut down in a heartbeat if any false data was reported.
oh. drleebaugh, the white paper you referenced from 1998 was not published, or peer reviewed, it was one researcher giving at a talk at a conference.
Also, no Data is "peer reviewed" when done according to ASTM standard testing procedures, with qualified instrumentation for the measurements. If any one part of the data published was not dead on accurate, all the competing oil company's who's products are listed, have very high paid attorneys who would not be sitting on thier hind quarters, and would have responded immediately with legal injunctions, dont ya think ? duhhhh
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  #32  
Old 02-24-2012, 03:33 PM
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Re: Valvoline gear oil

Those are all amsoil sites.....go figure...

Lame....
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  #33  
Old 02-24-2012, 04:42 PM
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Re: Valvoline gear oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmsfun View Post
IT is actually 8.2 % increase in this one http://www.smartsynthetics.com/articles/8.2_milage_increase.htm
6.5% in this. http://www.amsoil.com/performancetests/G2904.pdf since this thread was started about Valvoline, Here is how Amsoil compares to Valvolilne
http://www.smartsynthetics.com/articles/8.2_milage_increase.htm
For those who doubt the validity of the tests in the summary report in the earlier link, think again. It does no matter who paid for it, this was done by a certified private testing lab that would be shut down in a heartbeat if any false data was reported.
oh. drleebaugh, the white paper you referenced from 1998 was not published, or peer reviewed, it was one researcher giving at a talk at a conference.
Also, no Data is "peer reviewed" when done according to ASTM standard testing procedures, with qualified instrumentation for the measurements. If any one part of the data published was not dead on accurate, all the competing oil company's who's products are listed, have very high paid attorneys who would not be sitting on thier hind quarters, and would have responded immediately with legal injunctions, dont ya think ? duhhhh

The conference was peer reviewed, hence the publication (a white paper on the abstract) is a peer-reviewed abstract, but it doesn't matter.

I honestly could not care any more. I have made my point.

I never said the tests were falsefied data. I clearly stated that I doubt they have any real-world implications. Of course it matters who paid for the study. That's why by law they are required to say that they footed the bill. The marketing arms of these companies are hoping everyone thinks exactly like you do: These tests (which no doubt were selected BECAUSE they would show one product as superior) must translate to a real-world advantage. Which I still believe they clearly do not.

You are right, no data is from ASTM standards is peer reviewed because anyone that can read can interpret their meaning. The part that should be peer-reviewed are the claims based on those numbers. For the record, you are confusing validity and reliability - a reliable test produces predictable results every time it is run. A valid test actually measures what you are interested in. In this case, my original point was the deviations seen across gear oil (a reliable measure) would not have an impact on gas mileage (an externally valid one). I could conduct a test to show that my brand of gear oil is a more vibrant hue of yellow. I could then pay a company to measure how much more yellow my gear oil is than every one elses. I could then say that because my gear oil is more yellow, you will get better fuel economy. There, you want to buy it?

Jump from one argument to the next all you want (well those weren't done with ELSDs; Physics were different in the 80s; AMSOIL pour point is lower; my jeep drives different in the cold; I'm wasting my time arguing with you; if you agree with me then you must use dollar store oil, the tests are reliable if not labs would be sued; here look at all these papers on the AMSOIL website, etc...) You haven't spoken anything to the issue at hand. Nothing at all.

You still haven't shown one piece of evidence that AMSOIL over any othe GEAR OIL makes a difference. You are now including "studies" that look at engine oil and gear oil at the same time (what was that you said about Apples and oranges???).

The evidence that you seek does not exist. Flat out. If you do not believe the science, then fine, believe in the way the world works. I can say with certainty, if putting in a different gear lube would increase fuel efficiency by 4% without harming anything, the manufacturers would do it themselves. They have nothing to gain by holding out on this magical technology. Period. In most cases they have more resources, more money, more experience, and more motivation than any petroleum company has to benefit from this technology, yet strangely they don't. Funny how that works.

Dude, I don't have to prove anything to you or this forum about AMSOIL. The company is not owned by a past lover, they didn't steal my dog, and they didn't ruin my vehicle. I just don't buy into their marketing. If you do, fine.

Cheers.
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  #34  
Old 02-25-2012, 01:21 AM
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Re: Valvoline gear oil

Great links to back your claims...... An unnamed lab did a study for amsoil about their product in big rigs......... I think there are a few ebay seller in china that sell a $3 chip that will double your mpgs LOL they also have unnamed labs to back up their data. Give me a break.......
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Old 03-26-2012, 03:53 PM
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Re: Valvoline gear oil

I used the Valvoline 75w140 synthetic gear oil (that already contained the limited slip) about 2 years ago. Did approx 30,000 easy miles since then with no problems at all. Wouldn't hesitate to use it again when its time for the next change.
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