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  #25  
Old 12-06-2010, 10:16 AM
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Re: 2011 Grand Cherokee - reliability

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Originally Posted by Bmwister View Post
I used to be in the auto industry in my previous career and saw firsthand the difference between design flaws and manufacturing defects. There are no design defects from my picky perspective.
The clunking noise from the rear end was declared to be a design defect by the service department at my dealer. The have documented it as such with Chrysler.
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Old 12-06-2010, 10:54 AM
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Re: 2011 Grand Cherokee - reliability

Well, reliability is just like opinions and to each their own. Some drive the cars and hardly notice a problem while others like me, will nick pick any thing that isn't perfect. Same goes with trips to the dealers, once a month is to many for me while others go once a week and don't see a problem in it.
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Old 12-06-2010, 04:11 PM
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Re: 2011 Grand Cherokee - reliability

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Originally Posted by SUVfan View Post
I see your point about expectations. I am currently driving a 2006 Acura MDX. I bought it a few years ago, certified pre-owned, and it already had about 50k miles on it. I've driven it a great deal since then, and it's been nearly perfect. All I have to do is routine maintenance. Before that, I had a Toyota 4Runner for 4 years that was also just about perfect. Consequently, my expectations for reliability might be unreasonable. I could tolerate a few minor fixes or quick trips to the dealer. My real concern is repair cost and being without my car while it's stuck in the shop. I've driven first year models before - my first car was a '93 Chrysler Concorde with the (then) newly designed cab-forward body style spearheaded by the immortal Lee Iacocca. Ironically, that was also a time at which the manufacturer needed to rescue itself. Anyway, the Concorde was a mess of electrical issues and it stalled frequently. Important considerations. I'm certainly grateful for this forum.
That's exactly what I'm talking about. If you're used to owning/driving ultra-reliable vehicles then you probably have high expectations on that front (reliability) and you might be disappointed if your next vehicle isn't as reliable as your last. If I decide to buy a WK2, it will not be until the 2012 models hit the streets. And even then, I'll try my best to keep my expectations reasonable. Personally, I don't expect perfection, but I don't want to be hit with a bunch of nagging little issues either. As a former Land Rover owner in the past, I know what it's like to have a vehicle in the shop more than my garage. But these days I'm driving an SUV that hasn't returned to the dealer one single time since the day that I drove it off the dealer's lot nearly seven years ago.
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Old 12-06-2010, 07:16 PM
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Re: 2011 Grand Cherokee - reliability

I can completely relate to concerns over reliability. It took me four months to decide to buy this thing. I also scoured EVERY user review I could find on the net. It seemed like most of the bugs were worked out by early Fall.

Here is my two cents on this: First, you should know I have been a confirmed "Honda guy" for many years. I have owned three consecutive generations of Honda Accord's. I loved them to death. Two years ago I took a job with a car allowance so I went to an Acura TL. Many friends purchased a Honda product on my recommendation. All of those cars were VERY reliable: only needed fluids, gas, tires, and brakes. But on all of these cars I did find that the paint chipped way to easily, the leather wore quickly, and squeaks and rattles worsened over the life of each vehicle. I care for my vehicles meticulously, and I felt like they always aged to quickly. I would classify these vehicles as reliable but not durable (just my opinion).

I am now in a position where I need a vehicle that will move customers, friends, and things with ease. I had two cars but I don't have time to maintain two (one of them was an old beater SUV). I decided to consolidate to one for a while to simplify things. I looked primarily at crossovers and SUV's (Acura RDX, Nissan Murano, Acura MDX, Honda Pilot, Mazda CX-9, and the Jeep - on the recommendation of a friend). I ultimately ended up with the Jeep GC Overland. It took me four months of shopping around to narrow it to a Pilot or the Jeep. I was terrified of going from bulletproof cars I trusted to a newly re-designed Chrysler product. When I really looked at the value proposition of both cars I felt that the Jeep was hands down a better car. The only things Honda dealers were trying to sell me on were reliability and re-sale value (not features, design, and ingenuity). Incidentally, when it came time to trade in my Acura (a Honda product) they would not even give me KBB fair condition trade-in value for my car which was actually somewhere around clean/very good.

The last objection I had to overcome was my concerns over reliability. I scoured everything I could find on reliability. The thing that was clear to me is that today the difference between good reliability versus poor reliability is MUCH smaller than it was 10 years ago. Every auto manufacturer is making better cars.

Depending on how far into your buying experience you are you may not be aware of an extended warranty that is available to you. I found out about it on this forum. If you go to www.chryslerwarrantys.com they offer discounted Factory Warranty's. Look for the MaxCare and submit your name. With a discount code that is e-mailed to you they have a LIFETIME BUMPER TO BUMPER warranty for $1983. If you are concerned with reliability it will at least help keep your repair costs in check beyond the 100K mi powertrain warranty.

I will tell you I opted to get the V8 instead of the new V6 because of the transmission gearing, the MPG's were not THAT different, and I was concerned about unknowns with a new engine. There was lots of history available on the V8 and I felt like it was a solid engine/chassis combination. So from the perspective of a former Honda owner, I am very happy with my decision (but only 300 miles on the car so far so take it with a grain of salt). I think this car is designed way better than the Pilot or CX-9. Ultimately, you have to get to a place where you feel good about the purchase on your own. If you're cautious like me, take your time.

Good luck!
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  #29  
Old 12-06-2010, 07:51 PM
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Re: 2011 Grand Cherokee - reliability

litespeedz, you will be a good person to talk to three years from now. It will be interesting to see how well your new GC lived up to your expectations. I have a similar story to yours, but I'm coming from (and still own) a 4Runner that has been absolutely bulletproof after 7 years of ownership. I'm nowhere near ready to get rid of my 4Runner, but we are considering adding another mid-size SUV to our family and I do have some reservations about buying a Jeep. I'm hoping that this new WK2 turns out to be one of the more reliable Jeep products, but only time will tell for sure.

FWIW, I will not even consider a vehicle that doesn't have serious capability in offroad situations because I actually need that capability on occasion. So something like a Pilot is out of the question. That leaves me with only a few choices- the Grand Cherokee, another 4Runner (but I hate the new styling, it's really ugly now), or maybe even a Nissan Xterra (which I've heard will soon be discontinued). Other than that, I'd have to move up in price to something like a Land Rover LR4 or Range Rover. There's just nothing else I can think of in a midsize SUV that has the capability I want/need besides those few vehicles.
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Old 12-06-2010, 07:56 PM
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Re: 2011 Grand Cherokee - reliability

Quote:
Originally Posted by litespeedz View Post
I can completely relate to concerns over reliability. It took me four months to decide to buy this thing. I also scoured EVERY user review I could find on the net. It seemed like most of the bugs were worked out by early Fall.

Here is my two cents on this: First, you should know I have been a confirmed "Honda guy" for many years. I have owned three consecutive generations of Honda Accord's. I loved them to death. Two years ago I took a job with a car allowance so I went to an Acura TL. Many friends purchased a Honda product on my recommendation. All of those cars were VERY reliable: only needed fluids, gas, tires, and brakes. But on all of these cars I did find that the paint chipped way to easily, the leather wore quickly, and squeaks and rattles worsened over the life of each vehicle. I care for my vehicles meticulously, and I felt like they always aged to quickly. I would classify these vehicles as reliable but not durable (just my opinion).

I am now in a position where I need a vehicle that will move customers, friends, and things with ease. I had two cars but I don't have time to maintain two (one of them was an old beater SUV). I decided to consolidate to one for a while to simplify things. I looked primarily at crossovers and SUV's (Acura RDX, Nissan Murano, Acura MDX, Honda Pilot, Mazda CX-9, and the Jeep - on the recommendation of a friend). I ultimately ended up with the Jeep GC Overland. It took me four months of shopping around to narrow it to a Pilot or the Jeep. I was terrified of going from bulletproof cars I trusted to a newly re-designed Chrysler product. When I really looked at the value proposition of both cars I felt that the Jeep was hands down a better car. The only things Honda dealers were trying to sell me on were reliability and re-sale value (not features, design, and ingenuity). Incidentally, when it came time to trade in my Acura (a Honda product) they would not even give me KBB fair condition trade-in value for my car which was actually somewhere around clean/very good.

The last objection I had to overcome was my concerns over reliability. I scoured everything I could find on reliability. The thing that was clear to me is that today the difference between good reliability versus poor reliability is MUCH smaller than it was 10 years ago. Every auto manufacturer is making better cars.

Depending on how far into your buying experience you are you may not be aware of an extended warranty that is available to you. I found out about it on this forum. If you go to www.chryslerwarrantys.com they offer discounted Factory Warranty's. Look for the MaxCare and submit your name. With a discount code that is e-mailed to you they have a LIFETIME BUMPER TO BUMPER warranty for $1983. If you are concerned with reliability it will at least help keep your repair costs in check beyond the 100K mi powertrain warranty.

I will tell you I opted to get the V8 instead of the new V6 because of the transmission gearing, the MPG's were not THAT different, and I was concerned about unknowns with a new engine. There was lots of history available on the V8 and I felt like it was a solid engine/chassis combination. So from the perspective of a former Honda owner, I am very happy with my decision (but only 300 miles on the car so far so take it with a grain of salt). I think this car is designed way better than the Pilot or CX-9. Ultimately, you have to get to a place where you feel good about the purchase on your own. If you're cautious like me, take your time.

Good luck!
Superb post. Thanks for being part of our forum and sharing your rationale.

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  #31  
Old 12-06-2010, 08:37 PM
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Re: 2011 Grand Cherokee - reliability

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Originally Posted by MSCA View Post

As a former Land Rover owner in the past, I know what it's like to have a vehicle in the shop more than my garage.

FWIW, I will not even consider a vehicle that doesn't have serious capability in offroad situations because I actually need that capability on occasion. So something like a Pilot is out of the question. That leaves me with only a few choices- the Grand Cherokee, another 4Runner (but I hate the new styling, it's really ugly now), or maybe even a Nissan Xterra (which I've heard will soon be discontinued). Other than that, I'd have to move up in price to something like a Land Rover LR4 or Range Rover. There's just nothing else I can think of in a midsize SUV that has the capability I want/need besides those few vehicles.
So after a terrible experience with Land Rover, you're considering getting another, but you wouldn't touch a Jeep until it's been proven to be reliable over several years?

I've got to be honest with you, while you have some valid concerns about new model bugs (though way overblown in the case of the WK2, IMHO) it sounds like you don't really want one.

You'll probobly never feel comfortable with a GC, and perhaps be better off with one of the imports.
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  #32  
Old 12-07-2010, 09:04 AM
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Re: 2011 Grand Cherokee - reliability

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Originally Posted by GlowingGhoul View Post
So after a terrible experience with Land Rover, you're considering getting another, but you wouldn't touch a Jeep until it's been proven to be reliable over several years?

I've got to be honest with you, while you have some valid concerns about new model bugs (though way overblown in the case of the WK2, IMHO) it sounds like you don't really want one.

You'll probobly never feel comfortable with a GC, and perhaps be better off with one of the imports.
No, after my last Land Rover I wouldn't touch another one. It was in the shop constantly. I didn't say I'd buy another one, I just said it's one of the few vehicles that fit into the capable midsize SUV category. Plus, it's in another price category as well. Truth be told, I'd rather spend less money on something like an Xterra.

As far as the WK2, I don't know if I want one yet. I'll continue to read forums like this one to get feeback from people who own them. If they seem to be reliable, that will help me make my decision.
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Old 12-07-2010, 09:15 AM
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Re: 2011 Grand Cherokee - reliability

Oh, and just to make it perfectly clear, my Land Rover was an older Discovery (predecessor to the LR3) and those particular vehicles were known for some serious electrical issues. Mine had plenty of them for sure.

If for some reason I decided to buy another Land Rover in the future (which is extremely doubtful because I've been burned so badly in the past), I'd have to feel confident that the new model is much better in reliability than the older models. And that's exactly the same way I feel about buying a WK2. I'm in no hurry to buy a new SUV, so I can just sit on the sidelines and watch/listen/learn about this new model to see how it fares.

Reliability is a big thing for me...and I'm a former mechanic who still turns wrenches more as a hobby now. But like I said, once I've been burned with a problematic vehicle, I'd find it extremely hard to go back to that brand again. As much as I enjoy working on vehicles, there's only so much you can do before you need specialized equipment to repair modern vehicles.
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Old 12-07-2010, 09:22 AM
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Re: 2011 Grand Cherokee - reliability

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Originally Posted by Jeepin View Post
I'll second this! We bought a Porsche last year and had a miserable experience with both the sales and service departments. Unfortunately there is only one dealer in town and we will never buy another make in which there is only one choice of dealers. Fortunately (knock on wood), our Cayman has been bullet proof, so we haven't had to go back to the 'lovely' dealership.

We only hope that we have a decent experience if/when we buy a WK2...
Unfortunately exotic car dealers are all the same. When your spending $300,000.00 on a car you would expect these guys to give you the best service in town but they don't... Ferrari and Lambo dealers are the same.
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Old 12-07-2010, 10:27 AM
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Re: 2011 Grand Cherokee - reliability

MSCA, I'm not trying to start an argument or belittle you in any way, let me say that first and foremost. You say you are here to read and observe posts to determine whether or not you want to purchase a new WK2. It seems you make a lot of posts berateing the qaulity or trying to make large issues/questions about whether or not the vehicle is or will be reliable. Most of these comments center on it being a first year vehicle which is completely true. There are just now enough of these hitting the street to get reliable feedback as well as most of the late availability items just now coming on line. it will be a few more months before any patterns start to form, so more or less a waiting period.

Derogatory comments on Chryslers qaulity record and calling the Japanese brands "bullet Proof" are certainly lost on me. I've owned 9 Chrysler products since 1990, most were HD trucks.
I used to own and operate an excavating business and the trucks were used as support vehicles carrying fuel, oil, grease and tools etc. to support my Caterpillar machinery. The trucks were all Cummins diesel with 5 speed either in 2500 or 3500 versions. Needless to say these trucks were thuroughly used, hard and in extreme terrain. I also purchased a first year redesign Caravan in 1990 for my wife, Also a first year 300C for my mother after my father passed, and this is my second Jeep. Out of all of these only one has ever had to return to the dealer for anything after the sale. That's a rock solid reliability record for me. The Caravan went 300,000 miles with only one starter and one water pump. The trucks all exceeded 200,000 miles with no problems except one (I'll describe this later) not even a clutch was replaced in any of them. The Jeep before this was an '01 Cherokee that has 180,000 which I bought used to tow behind my motorhome. It's only problems were lack of maintenance by the previous owner, Worn out shocks, plugs, things like that.

The one problem I had with a truck was a first year Ram, 1994, 2500. This also addresses dealers and all makes have good and bad ones, foriegn and domestic. The first year five speeds had a defective retaining nut design for fifth gear. The nut would loosen and then fifth gear would start to whine. This happened to mine, I also read about it on the Turbo diesel registry forum.

I went to my dealer and the tech confirmed the problem after a quick test drive. I told the service manager it was my work truck and I couldn't have it down for long. He ordered a complete "new" transmission built after the Fix was put in place. The dealer called me the day the new unit came in and asked me to bring the truck by the next morning at 7. I left the truck with him and at 10:30a.m. he called and said my truck was ready for pick up with the new unit, and this was a diesel 4X4. I couldn't ask for better service from anyone.

I also worked as a certified mechanic when I was in my early twenties. What I learned was no matter what the make, certain vehicles will have numerous problems while hundreds of others just like it will experience none. I've owned one Toyota which was a horrible vehicle (Seqouia) and I tried to like it and give it a chance. Horrible fuel mileage compared with the GMC Denali it replaced and the Toyota was 2 wheel drive while the GMC was 4x4. Cheap, cheesy interior, and a vibration at 50mph they never got out of it even after 3 sets of tires, a drive shaft and several other things. I finally traded it off in disgust for an "09 Charger Daytona which is 100% trouble free and a much nicer vehicle inside.

The "being the first on the block to have one" comment is also lost on me. With the track record I've had with Chrysler vehicles I had no worries with this Jeep. It was time to upgrade to something larger than the Cherokee for vacation duty and a daily driver. I could care less what other people think, I buy what I like and drive it. I usually drive my personal vehicles ten years so I don't worry about resale value much either.

Like I said I'm not trying to start a flame. If your looking for info on the unit though, try listening or being positive rather than bringing up scare type comments and concerns. You haven't had experience with a WK2 so it's mostly opinion when you say your looking for facts. What I posted are factual experiences with chryco products over 16 years just like your factual experience with a Toyota.

Different people, different vehicle, different experiences. To each his own.
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Old 12-07-2010, 01:25 PM
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Re: 2011 Grand Cherokee - reliability

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Originally Posted by parker View Post
MSCA, I'm not trying to start an argument or belittle you in any way, let me say that first and foremost. You say you are here to read and observe posts to determine whether or not you want to purchase a new WK2. It seems you make a lot of posts berateing the qaulity or trying to make large issues/questions about whether or not the vehicle is or will be reliable. Most of these comments center on it being a first year vehicle which is completely true.
Yes, and I've also said that I wouldn't buy a first-year vehicle from ANY manufacturer. Not even the ones I consider to be "bulletproof". That's just something that comes from my experiences over the years.

Quote:
There are just now enough of these hitting the street to get reliable feedback as well as most of the late availability items just now coming on line. it will be a few more months before any patterns start to form, so more or less a waiting period.
Exactly. As I said, time will tell. But the more cautious among us will wait a minimum of a model year to determine patterns. And factory fixes for even minor issues can lag way behind what many people expect, unfortunately. I'm a firm believer that every vehicle improves as the model ages. Often the best of the bunch are last-year models, right before a new generation debuts. The problem there is not many people want to buy a new vehicle that will be the "old" body style in less than a year.

Quote:

Derogatory comments on Chryslers qaulity record and calling the Japanese brands "bullet Proof" are certainly lost on me. I've owned 9 Chrysler products since 1990, most were HD trucks.
I don't see any derogatory comments. But at the same time, we all speak based upon our experiences. And I've owned several foreign and domestic vehicles over the years. American, German, Japanese, English, etc... From my own experiences, there's a big difference is reliability when I compare Japanese vehicles to the others. That's not a derogatory comment, it's just what I've experienced.

Quote:
I used to own and operate an excavating business and the trucks were used as support vehicles carrying fuel, oil, grease and tools etc. to support my Caterpillar machinery. The trucks were all Cummins diesel with 5 speed either in 2500 or 3500 versions. Needless to say these trucks were thuroughly used, hard and in extreme terrain. I also purchased a first year redesign Caravan in 1990 for my wife, Also a first year 300C for my mother after my father passed, and this is my second Jeep. Out of all of these only one has ever had to return to the dealer for anything after the sale. That's a rock solid reliability record for me. The Caravan went 300,000 miles with only one starter and one water pump. The trucks all exceeded 200,000 miles with no problems except one (I'll describe this later) not even a clutch was replaced in any of them. The Jeep before this was an '01 Cherokee that has 180,000 which I bought used to tow behind my motorhome. It's only problems were lack of maintenance by the previous owner, Worn out shocks, plugs, things like that.
Well, those diesel engines are known for their durablility/longevity, no doubt about it. As for the other vehicles you mentioned, I think that's great. I wish I saw more people saying the same thing. It's good for the brand in general.

Quote:

The one problem I had with a truck was a first year Ram, 1994, 2500. This also addresses dealers and all makes have good and bad ones, foriegn and domestic. The first year five speeds had a defective retaining nut design for fifth gear. The nut would loosen and then fifth gear would start to whine. This happened to mine, I also read about it on the Turbo diesel registry forum.

I went to my dealer and the tech confirmed the problem after a quick test drive. I told the service manager it was my work truck and I couldn't have it down for long. He ordered a complete "new" transmission built after the Fix was put in place. The dealer called me the day the new unit came in and asked me to bring the truck by the next morning at 7. I left the truck with him and at 10:30a.m. he called and said my truck was ready for pick up with the new unit, and this was a diesel 4X4. I couldn't ask for better service from anyone.

I also worked as a certified mechanic when I was in my early twenties. What I learned was no matter what the make, certain vehicles will have numerous problems while hundreds of others just like it will experience none. I've owned one Toyota which was a horrible vehicle (Seqouia) and I tried to like it and give it a chance. Horrible fuel mileage compared with the GMC Denali it replaced and the Toyota was 2 wheel drive while the GMC was 4x4. Cheap, cheesy interior, and a vibration at 50mph they never got out of it even after 3 sets of tires, a drive shaft and several other things. I finally traded it off in disgust for an "09 Charger Daytona which is 100% trouble free and a much nicer vehicle inside.
Again, great experiences and thanks for sharing.

Quote:

The "being the first on the block to have one" comment is also lost on me. With the track record I've had with Chrysler vehicles I had no worries with this Jeep. It was time to upgrade to something larger than the Cherokee for vacation duty and a daily driver. I could care less what other people think, I buy what I like and drive it. I usually drive my personal vehicles ten years so I don't worry about resale value much either.
I'm not saying it applies to you, but there are lots of people out there that have to be among the first to buy a newly redesigned vehicle. You know, the "first on the block" to have one. Somehow a lot of these people think that they can impress everyone because they have the all-new 2011 MysteryMobile. That's not to say that all people buying a first-year vehicle think the same way. I realize that lots of people buy a vehicle when they NEED (not just want) a new vehicle and if the timing just happens to work out that way then they buy it. Like I said in another thread, my Aunt just purchased a WK2. Her minivan was on its last leg and it was time to either dump a lot of money into it or buy a new car.

Quote:

Like I said I'm not trying to start a flame. If your looking for info on the unit though, try listening or being positive rather than bringing up scare type comments and concerns. You haven't had experience with a WK2 so it's mostly opinion when you say your looking for facts. What I posted are factual experiences with chryco products over 16 years just like your factual experience with a Toyota.

Different people, different vehicle, different experiences. To each his own.
No flames at all....I understand exactly what you're saying. I am looking for information and I'll also share my experiences. You (or anyone else) shouldn't get offended when I bring up concerns about reliability. Lots of people share the same concerns, especially people who don't have a history with buying/owning Jeep products (and some that do!). Like many other people, I look at message forums like this one as a source of information, but it doesn't stop there. I also look at publications like Consumer Reports as a source of information. Facts are facts and opinions are opinions. It's my job to sort them out and determine which are which, especially when someone offers an opinion but portrays it as a fact. As for me, I don't have any facts as a Jeep owner and I've never pretended as such.
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