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  #49  
Old 12-07-2010, 09:52 PM
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Re: 2011 Grand Cherokee - reliability

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Originally Posted by Marlin View Post
I'm getting a little tired of this entire "first year" conversation.
Before I decided it was too much effort, I was going to make some of the same points.

MCSA brought up TSB's as an indicator of how bad first year vehicles are, since there are fewer and fewer with each year of production.

Manufacturers often initially over engineer systems to be cautious, then scale back as cost cutting measures if they think whatever is cut won't have a noticeable effect.

Look at the WK TSB's. There are fewer TSB's applicable to first year production vehicles then to later production years. This could very well be because of cost cutting in later model years.

While we're never going to be told just what was changed to save money (that wiring harness doesn't reaaallly need 22 clamps....15 will be fine and we'll save $2.34 per vehicle!) my prediction is that the cargo net, flashlight, and retractable cargo shade will disappear over the next few years, and you know that it won't just be accessories that are deleted.

Of course, an established pattern of problems will no doubt lead to running production changes intended to minimize warranty repair costs too, increasing reliability.

It just isn't as simple as first year models are inherently less reliable than later years of production.

Inital quality by JD Power also shows Jeep within 4% of Toyota's score, and far, far ahead of Land Rover.
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  #50  
Old 12-08-2010, 09:14 AM
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Re: 2011 Grand Cherokee - reliability

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Originally Posted by Scottina06 View Post
If you put one cent into consumer reports.....you're not as smart as I think you are. Cr has turned into a gossip rag like the nytimes etc.

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Consumer Reports gets their information from vehicle owners. So in a sense it's much like the information in this forum. I don't buy into any "sinister" motives from CR.

BTW, I'm not talking about their road tests, I'm talking about their reliability data.
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  #51  
Old 12-08-2010, 09:21 AM
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Re: 2011 Grand Cherokee - reliability

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Originally Posted by SUVfan View Post
I agree that CR holds a manufacturer's track record against it when evaluating new models. However, I think the whole point of visiting a vehicle review database is to get all available information. There's only so much you can tell from a few months and a few thousand miles on the WK2, so buying one now is more of a risk because of that lack of info. However, based on historical performance, you can get a feel for a manufacturer's overall commitment to quality control. It seems like Toyota and Honda are more or less teacher's pets or golden boys to CR. Annoying though that might seem, those manufacturers have earned the benefit of the doubt with consistency over time. Unfortunately, the same is true with many manufacturers who have lost CR's confidence through poor past performance, which is difficult to overcome. I don't take CR as gospel, but there's no question that I always refer to it before making a large purchase (car, computer, television, etc.). More research usually helps limit your risk of making a bad buy.

Yeah, I agree with you there. It's just another source of information. People have to decide themselves how much weight it will hold, if any at all.

I'm looking at buying a new 50" Plasma or LCD. One visit to Best Buy and my head was spinning. They had at least 20 different models, many of them were from the same manufacturer in the same size. So instead of listening to the 20-year-old salesman's line of BS, I decided to look up the ratings in CR. Again, another source of information, and a good one in this case.

That said, why wouldn't I do the same thing with a new car purchase? Maybe I'm just a guy who likes data and believes in averages and probability. It's all part of risk assessment. At the same time, eventually you just have to make a choice and not harp on risk....especially if you're at the point that you NEED to buy.
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  #52  
Old 12-08-2010, 09:24 AM
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Re: 2011 Grand Cherokee - reliability

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Originally Posted by MSCA View Post
Consumer Reports gets their information from vehicle owners. So in a sense it's much like the information in this forum. I don't buy into any "sinister" motives from CR.

BTW, I'm not talking about their road tests, I'm talking about their reliability data.
Dood, just stop. No further amount of hand-wringing, research, or poking the tiger is gonna help you with your self negotiations.

It's like water torture. You're not going to learn anything else from us, and you don't seem to have the capacity to listen to anyone other than your own voice.

Just get another rice burner, or keep the one you got another seven years. It's OK. Really.
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  #53  
Old 12-08-2010, 09:30 AM
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Re: 2011 Grand Cherokee - reliability

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Originally Posted by Bmwister View Post
To add what Technosavant said, CR also depends on input from its readers for "reported problems" that may or may not mean a reliability issue like the kind that leaves you stranded. For example, if a CR subscriber hears an engine noise they don't understand and goes to the dealer, they may then indicate on a survey that "yes" they had a complaint about the engine and that adds to the CR black scoring records. It's a joke, IMHO, especially when they got caught with their shorts in the wind with the whole Toyota fiasco.

CR goes to great lengths to categorize owner's reported problems, just for the reason you stated. And I'll agree that a problem that leaves you stranded is more serious than one that doesn't. Actually, modern vehicles are usually very good at NOT leaving you stranded these days. They all have "limp-home" mode, just to avoid that problem. Not only that, but if a sensor does malfunction, many times the ECM can take values from two other related sensors to "estimate" the input from the malfunctioning sensor. Sometimes this works so well that it's transparent to the driver, which is why we have a "check engine" light in the first place.

And a bit off topic, but the whole Toyota fiasco (if you're still following it or interested at all) has pretty much been proven to be 100% media hype. There have been several investigations by neutral parties and nobody has found a single shred of evidence that anything was wrong with any of the Toyota vehicles in question. Yes, there were faulty accelerator pedals in some models, and yes, the mats could cause the pedals to stick under full throttle, but I'm talking about the whole "runaway" Toyotas that couldn't be stopped on the highway ordeal. A similar thing happened to Audi many years ago and it almost caused the company to go bankrupt. Nobody ever found a single thing wrong with any of those Audis either.

What's really interesting is that every manufacturer has "runaway vehicle" complaints from consumers/owners all the time. In fact, Ford had MORE than Toyota during that same time period. Like I said, it was media hype...
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Old 12-08-2010, 09:36 AM
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Re: 2011 Grand Cherokee - reliability

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Originally Posted by Marlin View Post
I'm getting a little tired of this entire "first year" conversation.

Manufacturers spend millions and cover countless miles designing, testing and evaluating new vehicles. The factory builds typically hundreds of pilot vehicles that are inspected for quality.

The first vehicle off the line should be as good as the model will get.

.
Yes, they do spend millions testing and evaluating new models. The whole idea there is to get the bugs out BEFORE these new vehicles get into the hands of their owners. But like anything in life, you can only do so much testing and hope that you did well.

Unfortunately, you can't find & correct everything during testing. The fact of the matter is that first year vehicles almost always have more TSBs issued and the TSBs taper off as the model years progress. That in itself is proof that manufacturers continue to "work out the bugs" in their vehicles over time and that the first vehicles off the line are not as good as the model will get.
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  #55  
Old 12-08-2010, 09:41 AM
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Re: 2011 Grand Cherokee - reliability

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Originally Posted by GlowingGhoul View Post

Inital quality by JD Power also shows Jeep within 4% of Toyota's score, and far, far ahead of Land Rover.

I like initial quality reports, but I put much more weight on long-term reliability than initial quality.

From what I've seen, there's a far bigger difference between vehicles when it comes to long-term reliability than there is in initial quality. Every manufacturer seems to do well in initial quality, which is based upon the first 90 days of ownership.

I'll also admit that the domestic vehicles in general have greatly improved their initial quality ratings, which of course is a great thing.
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  #56  
Old 12-08-2010, 09:47 AM
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Re: 2011 Grand Cherokee - reliability

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Originally Posted by moosehead View Post
Dood, just stop. No further amount of hand-wringing, research, or poking the tiger is gonna help you with your self negotiations.

It's like water torture. You're not going to learn anything else from us, and you don't seem to have the capacity to listen to anyone other than your own voice.

Just get another rice burner, or keep the one you got another seven years. It's OK. Really.
Don't worry about me or my decisions. If you don't like it, don't read it. I think you're still upset about the whole roof rack thing. Get a life already.
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Old 12-08-2010, 10:02 AM
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Re: 2011 Grand Cherokee - reliability

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Originally Posted by MSCA View Post
Don't worry about me or my decisions. If you don't like it, don't read it. I think you're still upset about the whole roof rack thing. Get a life already.
If self-flaggelation does it for you, nothing wrong with that. Just a bit painful to watch for the rest of us.

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  #58  
Old 12-08-2010, 10:15 AM
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Re: 2011 Grand Cherokee - reliability

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Originally Posted by moosehead View Post
If self-flaggelation does it for you, nothing wrong with that. Just a bit painful to watch for the rest of us.
Grow up, kid.

And "you" has nothing to do with "us".
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  #59  
Old 12-08-2010, 11:39 AM
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Re: 2011 Grand Cherokee - reliability

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Originally Posted by MSCA View Post
Grow up, kid.

And "you" has nothing to do with "us".

Count me in with the "us".
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Old 12-08-2010, 11:49 AM
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Re: 2011 Grand Cherokee - reliability

Easy, fellas. This is a great forum and it's been a big help with research. Hate to see anybody discouraged from adding their input. To be fair, if you're not interested in a discussion about first year reliability issues for the new JGC, it's probably best to avoid a thread titled "2011 Grand Cherokee - reliability"...
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