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  #109  
Old 01-15-2011, 11:30 AM
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Re: 2011 Grand Cherokee vs. 2011 Ford Explorer

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Originally Posted by Bmwister View Post
OT
Having done a stint as a internal (manufacturer) vehicle evaluator and writer many years ago, keep in mind these "other" publications you speak of mostly quote test results already published by a peer publication. When you have several publications repeating results from the same test, it does not indicate corroborating evidence. I'm not saying MotorTrend has an invalid test, but how do we know all the variables in order to say "that's how quick the 2011 JGC Hemi is...period....end of story."? I felt it was a 7-sec truck by the seat of my pants, but after embarrassing my neighbor in his V8 Q7 over and over we used a stopwatch and got repeated 0-60 between 6.6 to 6.8 seconds; we did it eight or nine times one evening on a private road (Sport mode, traction control off). I should correct my "claim" to say mid to high 6s then.

In fact, MotorTrend, Road & Track and Car & Driver often get vastly different test results (half second here or tens of feet difference there) compared to each other and readers often call them out on it in reader-submitted letters. They have also all admitted that when they have multiple issues involving a specific vehicle, they often re-publish previous road test results in later issues leading readers to believe that a "later road test" yielded the same times; that is not dishonest, but it leaves a lot of variables unchecked and can indicate false consistency to the non-anal reader. Sometimes they actually do have an opportunity to perform a full re-test of the same kind of vehicle and get better or worse results because vehicles differ; there are lots of variables.

Read press reviews with a big gap between the lines when it comes to brand new vehicles. A press vehicle is thoroughly thrashed and trashed and can yield wide variations in performance compared to a vehicle fresh off the assembly line or a new vehicle that had proper break in, runs top shelf synthetic oil and proper fuel from a good station (Shell, Mobil, BP) with minimal ethanol or oxygenation. Ask yourself: did the press vehicles have good 89 octane fuel or ethanol-laden 87 and how many runs did the press do to get their times and what equipment did they use? Did that MotorTrend JGC come from the factory fresh (it will be significantly slower when spanking new vs broken in) or was it a press-pool vehicle that had been hammered on to the point that the engine wasn't broken in the best possible way?

good info bud! I also felt the hemi 2011 was faster 0-60 than mid 7's. But thta was seat of the pants as well.
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  #110  
Old 01-15-2011, 03:26 PM
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Re: 2011 Grand Cherokee vs. 2011 Ford Explorer

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Originally Posted by mkaresh View Post
What launch technique did you use to get a time in the high 6s? The magazines often use techniques that most owners wouldn't.

Temperature and elevation can also be factors. At least one of the big magazines corrects for these, but how accurate is the correction?

I'm a fan of Car & Driver's "street start" test simply because it is more easily reproducible, since it doesn't involve brake torquing the engine or getting a "perfect" launch (the sort that puts a lot of stress on the drivetrain).
Some launch both ways, and specify the different results, as you of course know.

But more importantly, your repair data is, along with CR's reader feedback, the gold standard. You are heavily involved with other models and forums, including the below-mentioned Enclave forum, but the GC seems to be left out in the cold.

Any way of resolving this, perhaps tying in more formally with this forum, a la the Enclave forum?
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  #111  
Old 01-15-2011, 06:18 PM
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Re: 2011 Grand Cherokee vs. 2011 Ford Explorer

Well, drove the Explorer today.

Impressions, it's basically the Lincoln MXK/Ford Edge extended, more room width wise inside. 3rd row works the same as MKX, still hardly any room though. Leather is a more comfortable than MKX, but not as nice as Overland we drove. The center console/dash area cleaned up some compared to the lincoln/edge.

The exterior looks different from the front, from windsheild back it looks like an extended edge. It does look good though, parked it right next to the Edge.

It drove pretty well, decent pickup when getting on it. Curves were good, not as much roll as I thought there'd be.

Basically priced one out, AWD, 6 speed, fully loaded. $45,650. Which was high compared to the Overland $43K. The flyer that Jeep sent me comparing the Explorer to the GC was close on the options vs standard equipment on each.

i.e. the dual pane sunroof is a $1500 option, the bucket seats walkthrough was $750 option, second row seats non-heated, however I think HID was standard though they don't turn with the curve, also I think the rain sensitive wipers were standard with limited. Keyless worked about the same in both vehicles.

All in all, it's still a good vehicle, just not as nice as the Jeep IMO. Again, this will be my wife's car so it's up to her. Comfort and usability are her biggest wants as she travels so much through out the state. She still likes the Ford Sync/MyFord touch, though the Nav was a little hiccuppy, though I've heard the same from the Jeep.

She doesn't even want to look at the Durango. So, we'll probably set up a Saturday to drive them all on the same day; Enclave, Explorer, Jeep, in that order (worst to first) and make a decision.

I think the thing to do would to also compare the Penestar engine this time instead of the v8, though, the v8 Overland is already cheaper.

Where's this 8 speed ?

My non-biased opinion and owner of neither, I think the GC has a more refined interior, more rugged, towing, while the Explorer is more practical with the third row, gas mileage, FWD, Sync. I think the GC fits an individual better, where as the Explorer fits a family/grocery getter type person better. I'd almost say they're two different vehicles when comparing what someone actually needs/wants.

The good news for both, is the fact that people like my wife, who never really thought about buying American, will be impressed by both. We started this whole journey with her thinking the Volvo Xc90 was for her, and look where it is on the list compared to the Jeep/Ford/GMC vehicles
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  #112  
Old 01-15-2011, 08:58 PM
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Re: 2011 Grand Cherokee vs. 2011 Ford Explorer

The NEW Durango is basically a slightly stretched GC with less aggressive approach and departure angles, and 4 wheel drive system. If you want a third row, you have to look at it. But, I don't know if the 2011s are on dealer lots yet.
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  #113  
Old 01-15-2011, 09:26 PM
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Re: 2011 Grand Cherokee vs. 2011 Ford Explorer

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdalcanto View Post
The NEW Durango is basically a slightly stretched GC with less aggressive approach and departure angles, and 4 wheel drive system. If you want a third row, you have to look at it. But, I don't know if the 2011s are on dealer lots yet.
They are, I saw one today at my local Jeep Dodge Chrysler dealership. It was a more basic model but it was infact a new Durango.
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  #114  
Old 01-15-2011, 10:07 PM
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Re: 2011 Grand Cherokee vs. 2011 Ford Explorer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bmwister View Post
OT
Having done a stint as a internal (manufacturer) vehicle evaluator and writer many years ago, keep in mind these "other" publications you speak of mostly quote test results already published by a peer publication. When you have several publications repeating results from the same test, it does not indicate corroborating evidence. I'm not saying MotorTrend has an invalid test, but how do we know all the variables in order to say "that's how quick the 2011 JGC Hemi is...period....end of story."? I felt it was a 7-sec truck by the seat of my pants, but after embarrassing my neighbor in his V8 Q7 over and over we used a stopwatch and got repeated 0-60 between 6.6 to 6.8 seconds; we did it eight or nine times one evening on a private road (Sport mode, traction control off). I should correct my "claim" to say mid to high 6s then.

In fact, MotorTrend, Road & Track and Car & Driver often get vastly different test results (half second here or tens of feet difference there) compared to each other and readers often call them out on it in reader-submitted letters. They have also all admitted that when they have multiple issues involving a specific vehicle, they often re-publish previous road test results in later issues leading readers to believe that a "later road test" yielded the same times; that is not dishonest, but it leaves a lot of variables unchecked and can indicate false consistency to the non-anal reader. Sometimes they actually do have an opportunity to perform a full re-test of the same kind of vehicle and get better or worse results because vehicles differ; there are lots of variables.

Read press reviews with a big gap between the lines when it comes to brand new vehicles. A press vehicle is thoroughly thrashed and trashed and can yield wide variations in performance compared to a vehicle fresh off the assembly line or a new vehicle that had proper break in, runs top shelf synthetic oil and proper fuel from a good station (Shell, Mobil, BP) with minimal ethanol or oxygenation. Ask yourself: did the press vehicles have good 89 octane fuel or ethanol-laden 87 and how many runs did the press do to get their times and what equipment did they use? Did that MotorTrend JGC come from the factory fresh (it will be significantly slower when spanking new vs broken in) or was it a press-pool vehicle that had been hammered on to the point that the engine wasn't broken in the best possible way?
Of course there are a ton of varibles. I would't expect everyone to publish the same exact results, considering all the variables. At the same time, I'd put more faith into instrumented testing than some guy with a stopwatch and his speedometer. LOL.

Really though, who cares? These things aren't made for speed and I couldn't care less if they go 0-60 in 6, 7, or even 8 seconds. As long as they can get out of their own way, that's fast enough for me. If I want to go fast, I'll hop in my car.
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  #115  
Old 01-16-2011, 12:39 AM
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Re: 2011 Grand Cherokee vs. 2011 Ford Explorer

Quote:
Originally Posted by gt6974a View Post
My non-biased opinion and owner of neither, I think the GC has a more refined interior, more rugged, towing, while the Explorer is more practical with the third row, gas mileage, FWD, Sync. I think the GC fits an individual better, where as the Explorer fits a family/grocery getter type person better. I'd almost say they're two different vehicles when comparing what someone actually needs/wants.

The good news for both, is the fact that people like my wife, who never really thought about buying American, will be impressed by both. We started this whole journey with her thinking the Volvo Xc90 was for her, and look where it is on the list compared to the Jeep/Ford/GMC vehicles
I couldn't agree more - especially the part about the improvements about these two American cars. I owned a $70K+ 2006 BMW X5 4.8is and I would take the GC/Explorer - no need to think twice...
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  #116  
Old 01-16-2011, 01:01 AM
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Re: 2011 Grand Cherokee vs. 2011 Ford Explorer

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Originally Posted by MSCA View Post
At the same time, I'd put more faith into instrumented testing than some guy with a stopwatch and his speedometer. LOL.
That's quite some chutzpah given that you have no idea what my background is nor what test method I used but you ASSUME too much. Let me put this another way: I would eagerly wager that MY particular 2011 JGC 4x4 Hemi will show it's tail lights to the new 4x4 Explorer from a dead stop or rolling start all the way to 100mph over and over regardless of tests results published by automotive writers who may or may not have an axe to grind.

My test method:
My neighbor, a LEO, used the Kustom Pro Laser III to measure my speed and timed my run when we were at his family farm in WI. We did the same to his Q7 4.2 which did consistent 7.1 - 7.2 runs with me at the wheel. I pre-loaded the transmission and drivetrain with mild throttle input while braking before launching. Upon brake release (launch) I simultaneously floor the throttle and let the trans shift itself. His timer begins when he sees my brake lights go off (.1 sec variance there I'm sure) until after the laser reads 60mph. The road is not long enough to do a 1/4 mile run or we would have done that too. Temperature at test time was ~23F.
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  #117  
Old 01-16-2011, 10:03 AM
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Re: 2011 Grand Cherokee vs. 2011 Ford Explorer

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Originally Posted by Lingohocken View Post
Some launch both ways, and specify the different results, as you of course know.

But more importantly, your repair data is, along with CR's reader feedback, the gold standard. You are heavily involved with other models and forums, including the below-mentioned Enclave forum, but the GC seems to be left out in the cold.

Any way of resolving this, perhaps tying in more formally with this forum, a la the Enclave forum?
I just discovered this forum, and contacted the owner. He was very enthusiastic about linking up, so I'll be doing exactly what you suggest.

The Grand Cherokee has lagged because some other Jeep forums have been less friendly, to put it mildly. Seems to be a better bunch of people here, some of which I'm going to guess got fed up with the other forums.
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  #118  
Old 01-16-2011, 10:07 AM
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Re: 2011 Grand Cherokee vs. 2011 Ford Explorer

Quote:
Originally Posted by gt6974a View Post
Well, drove the Explorer today.

Impressions, it's basically the Lincoln MXK/Ford Edge extended...
The Explorer and Edge are actually based on two totally different platforms. The Explorer is more accurately a taller, shorter wheelbase Flex, though the styling is much different and no visible parts are shared.
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  #119  
Old 01-16-2011, 10:11 AM
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Re: 2011 Grand Cherokee vs. 2011 Ford Explorer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bmwister View Post
That's quite some chutzpah given that you have no idea what my background is nor what test method I used but you ASSUME too much. Let me put this another way: I would eagerly wager that MY particular 2011 JGC 4x4 Hemi will show it's tail lights to the new 4x4 Explorer from a dead stop or rolling start all the way to 100mph over and over regardless of tests results published by automotive writers who may or may not have an axe to grind.

My test method:
My neighbor, a LEO, used the Kustom Pro Laser III to measure my speed and timed my run when we were at his family farm in WI. We did the same to his Q7 4.2 which did consistent 7.1 - 7.2 runs with me at the wheel. I pre-loaded the transmission and drivetrain with mild throttle input while braking before launching. Upon brake release (launch) I simultaneously floor the throttle and let the trans shift itself. His timer begins when he sees my brake lights go off (.1 sec variance there I'm sure) until after the laser reads 60mph. The road is not long enough to do a 1/4 mile run or we would have done that too. Temperature at test time was ~23F.
Not a very aggressive launch technique--the magazines launch AWD vehicles far harder. Sounds like you either have a HEMI that is running very well or the car in the press fleet has one that is down on power. One possibility is that they tweaked the engine after SOP, but the official specs haven't changed.
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  #120  
Old 01-16-2011, 10:42 AM
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Re: 2011 Grand Cherokee vs. 2011 Ford Explorer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bmwister View Post
That's quite some chutzpah given that you have no idea what my background is nor what test method I used but you ASSUME too much. Let me put this another way: I would eagerly wager that MY particular 2011 JGC 4x4 Hemi will show it's tail lights to the new 4x4 Explorer from a dead stop or rolling start all the way to 100mph over and over regardless of tests results published by automotive writers who may or may not have an axe to grind.

My test method:
My neighbor, a LEO, used the Kustom Pro Laser III to measure my speed and timed my run when we were at his family farm in WI. We did the same to his Q7 4.2 which did consistent 7.1 - 7.2 runs with me at the wheel. I pre-loaded the transmission and drivetrain with mild throttle input while braking before launching. Upon brake release (launch) I simultaneously floor the throttle and let the trans shift itself. His timer begins when he sees my brake lights go off (.1 sec variance there I'm sure) until after the laser reads 60mph. The road is not long enough to do a 1/4 mile run or we would have done that too. Temperature at test time was ~23F.

Dude...you used a stopwatch. End of story. I don't care about your background (although you found it necessary to give us all a synopsis in an earlier post) or your test methods because YOU USED A STOPWATCH. LOL

I can only chuckle at the thought of some guy watching your brake lights go out and then pressing a button on a stopwatch. If you think this is somehow comparable to proper instrumented testing, then any credit I gave you earlier just flies right out the window. Maybe you should contact the NHRA Top Fuel and tell them that they don't need all that fancy timing equipment because you and your buddy can be almost as accurate with your Kustom Pro Laser III and your Timex stopwatch. LOL
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