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  #157  
Old 03-10-2016, 04:49 AM
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Re: 2014 Gear Shift Confusion

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Originally Posted by Snipe315 View Post
WOW!!!

How someone could be so TOTALLY WRONG about something so basic is almost beyond me!!!

Either you:
- Don't actually have a 2014/15 Jeep Grand Cherokee
- Have never actually driven one
- Have a totally broken one

Because you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. Once in DRIVE, pushing the shifter forward without pressing the button gets you into NEUTRAL.


PERIOD!

No amount of pushing or pulling on the shifter will take you Out of NEUTRAL until you ALSO PRESS the BUTTON!

Pulling the shifter back once in NEUTRAL gets you into... NEUTRAL. Pressing the button is REQUIRED to shift out of NEUTRAL. Push forward while pressing the button takes you from NEUTRAL to either REVERSE or PARK (depending on how hard you push and/or how many notches you push thru). Pull backward from NEUTRAL while pressing the button takes you back into DRIVE.




BTW... pressing the Brake Pedal may or may not also be required when going into Reverse and/or Park. I can't remember right now.

Relax tiger we are talking about X5 shifter, read the posts.


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  #158  
Old 03-10-2016, 07:56 AM
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Re: 2014 Gear Shift Confusion investigated by Feds

As an owner of a '14 Overland, when I was shopping for an SRT I would only consider a '14 or '15 specifically because I wanted the '14 style shifter. The ease of entry and exit on the Sport mode is brilliant.

Retro is only good for body styles.


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  #159  
Old 03-10-2016, 02:22 PM
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Re: 2014 Gear Shift Confusion

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Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post
Wait...what?

That's completely untrue. A good driver can get far better performance and fuel economy out of a manual transmission car than a similar automatic. Heck, I get far better gas mileage in my Jeep by shifting manually. I see at least a 2-3MPG drop in fuel economy letting the computer shift all the time, even in so-called eco mode.

As far as safety technologies, what safety technologies? You mean the ones that compensate for not paying attention to the fact you're supposed to be controlling a couple tons of rolling death? Maybe if people had to engage their vehicle by switching gears manually, they wouldn't be able to use that free hand to do more distracting tasks...

1) Fuel Economy - your manual shifting of an 8 speed transmission Jeep translating into better fuel economy might raise an eyebrow but it a common hypermiling technique. What is dubious is the fact that you equate manual shifting of an automatic with a manual transmission gearbox. Apart from Porsche, I do not know of any mainstream car manufacturer that makes a 7 speed manual gearbox. You know, one that needs a clutch.

Even so, an 8 or 9 speed ZF gearbox will have a "taller" final drive ratio for all those long highway cruises, and it will be able to optimize driving in a taller gear. Unless you are driving a truck or a bus - you will never have 8-9 gears with a clutch in a car or SUV. You will have six.

2) Safety Technologies

Safety Tech like stability controls, active cruise control, emergency braking (or start-stop systems that save fuel) on manual transmission cars are not possible without use of electronics and hydraulic, pneumatic, electromagnetic actuators - whatever the case or the application, something will have to trigger the drivetrain to disconnect from sending power to the wheels.
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  #160  
Old 03-12-2016, 10:00 AM
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Re: 2014 Gear Shift Confusion

Quote:
Originally Posted by f1anatic View Post
1) Fuel Economy - your manual shifting of an 8 speed transmission Jeep translating into better fuel economy might raise an eyebrow but it a common hypermiling technique. What is dubious is the fact that you equate manual shifting of an automatic with a manual transmission gearbox. Apart from Porsche, I do not know of any mainstream car manufacturer that makes a 7 speed manual gearbox. You know, one that needs a clutch.

Even so, an 8 or 9 speed ZF gearbox will have a "taller" final drive ratio for all those long highway cruises, and it will be able to optimize driving in a taller gear. Unless you are driving a truck or a bus - you will never have 8-9 gears with a clutch in a car or SUV. You will have six.
Except you really don't need 8 speeds if your top gear (say 5 or 6) is tall enough and is meant to be an overdrive gear.

All the 8 speed transmission has really done is add more gears to the bottom of the range, considering I'm in 7th at 40mph. If I keep it in automatic mode, it almost never wants to be in 8th. Give it a touch of gas, it downshifts. Go up the slightest hill, it downshifts. Squint too hard at the gear shift, it downshifts.


Quote:
2) Safety Technologies

Safety Tech like stability controls, active cruise control, emergency braking (or start-stop systems that save fuel) on manual transmission cars are not possible without use of electronics and hydraulic, pneumatic, electromagnetic actuators - whatever the case or the application, something will have to trigger the drivetrain to disconnect from sending power to the wheels.
Um, you can get all of that with a manual transmission hybrid vehicle, aside from the emergency braking thing, though even that could be done by simply switching to the electric motor to avoid actually stalling during the stop. Then it would just need a similar system to what the manual transmission F40 has, where it sounds a beeper and holds the brake if you're in too high a gear to start off again. As far as Stop/Start, my sister's manual transmission hybrid stops and starts the engine perfectly well.

Adaptive cruise control can be done, too. It just would have to drop out once the RPMs in the current gear get too low, similar to what happens with a small car on a big hill.

As far as stability controls and all that, perhaps you'd like to tell my Subaru and Audi owning friends it's not possible with a manual. Heck, my friend has a pickup that can compensate for an uneven load without him doing a thing.
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  #161  
Old 03-12-2016, 11:50 AM
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Re: 2014 Gear Shift Confusion

Quote:
Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post
Except you really don't need 8 speeds if your top gear (say 5 or 6) is tall enough and is meant to be an overdrive gear.

All the 8 speed transmission has really done is add more gears to the bottom of the range, considering I'm in 7th at 40mph. If I keep it in automatic mode, it almost never wants to be in 8th. Give it a touch of gas, it downshifts. Go up the slightest hill, it downshifts. Squint too hard at the gear shift, it downshifts.

Um, you can get all of that with a manual transmission hybrid vehicle, aside from the emergency braking thing, though even that could be done by simply switching to the electric motor to avoid actually stalling during the stop. Then it would just need a similar system to what the manual transmission F40 has, where it sounds a beeper and holds the brake if you're in too high a gear to start off again. As far as Stop/Start, my sister's manual transmission hybrid stops and starts the engine perfectly well.

Adaptive cruise control can be done, too. It just would have to drop out once the RPMs in the current gear get too low, similar to what happens with a small car on a big hill.

As far as stability controls and all that, perhaps you'd like to tell my Subaru and Audi owning friends it's not possible with a manual. Heck, my friend has a pickup that can compensate for an uneven load without him doing a thing.

Everything is possible with the addition of electronics. At some point, if I have electromagnets and all sorts of electronics interfering with the gearbox, I might as well get the full automatic gearbox treatment because all the advantages of a manual transmission (i.e. reduced complexity; increased longevity) are gone and the automatic will have more advantages at that point.

SUBARU did not have stability or traction control on its manual gearboxes until the MY 2007 with the Subaru Legacy GT. That included the WRX/STI range which added that feature for the - then new - MY 2008. All that despite their trick center diff. I have a 2005 Legacy GT and the only way I could get the chassis to behave better was through the addition of a front LSD. Tires made a difference, suspension made an even better difference, the front LSD transformed the car. If I were to do it all over again, and be allowed one mod only, would be the front LSD.

The 8-9 speed transmissions didn't just add lower gears, they added at both ends and allows the average driver to be in an optimal gear for fuel efficiency. I think your overall understanding of RPM, number of gears and manual vs. automatic transmission dynamics wrong. You keep projecting your experience with the ZF box in your Jeep and its shifting patterns or the manumatic shifting habits to a manual transmission gearbox and it simply doesn't work that way. Google for yourself additional information on RPM in 6th gear and you will see that any gas engined car will have RPMs anywhere between 500-1000 rpm higher than the modern ZF box in our Jeeps. Even some CVTs display that problem. Here's my experience below (note my STI numbers are indicative of models from 10 years ago).

60 mph
Jeep - 1500+ (8 speed)
Legacy GT - 2500 rpm (5 speed)
STI - 2300 rpm (6 speed)

70 mph
Jeep - 2000 rpm (8 speed)
Legacy GT - 3000 rpm (5 speed)
STI - 2900 rpm (6 speed)

There is no advantage to having adaptive cruise control if the speed range is in increments of 10-20 mph for a specific gear, and can only work essentially on empty highways only. Your idea is a non-starter.

As for which transmission results in a faster car - I forgot if we touched on that - there's no debate. I am not going to discuss it, but should you try to dispute it, please search on google first. Plenty of manufacturers post both numbers and many automotive publications have already tested both variants.
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  #162  
Old 03-14-2016, 07:38 AM
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Re: 2014 Gear Shift Confusion

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Originally Posted by f1anatic View Post

60 mph
Jeep - 1500+ (8 speed)
Legacy GT - 2500 rpm (5 speed)
STI - 2300 rpm (6 speed)

70 mph
Jeep - 2000 rpm (8 speed)
Legacy GT - 3000 rpm (5 speed)
STI - 2900 rpm (6 speed)

There is no advantage to having adaptive cruise control if the speed range is in increments of 10-20 mph for a specific gear, and can only work essentially on empty highways only. Your idea is a non-starter.

As for which transmission results in a faster car - I forgot if we touched on that - there's no debate. I am not going to discuss it, but should you try to dispute it, please search on google first. Plenty of manufacturers post both numbers and many automotive publications have already tested both variants.
I'm not disputing your numbers, just the practicality.

Just because the RPMs are lower in 8th, doesn't mean most of the gearing wasn't added at the low end. It just means 8th is a really tall overdrive gear. There's a huge drop in RPMs between 6th and 8th gear compare to 4th and 6th in a 6 speed manual.

Further, unless you live in Kansas, you'll never be able to sit in 8th gear anywhere long enough to get real benefit from it. Even on roads with slight inclines, my Jeep automatic transmission constantly wants 7th to maintain speed and even 6th or 5th on steeper hills. The problem is, it's often not necessary to downshift, but the stupid transmission does it anyway, even in so-called "eco" mode. A little uphill slope - downshift. Press the gas the slightest little bit - downshift. Lower RPMs are useless if the Jeep hates being at them.

I can reign that in using manual mode and get far better mileage, but I'm still going to have to drop to 6th gear on average for a lot of the hills on highways here in the Northeast. With a 5 or 6 speed, there's often little need to downshift except on the steepest of hills. With my 5 speed F-150, I could leave it in 5th all the way through the Catskills, meaning it's a lot closer in performance to having to keep shifting down to 5th or 6th in the Jeep for the same hills.

The fact is there are so many gears so close together at the low end now, you don't even need 1st gear at all. Heck, I bet the Jeep would have no issue starting off in 3rd. Try that in most 5 or 6 speed vehicles.

Just watch how the jeep shifts. It flies through the first 3 gears before you're barely moving. Heck, I'm in 4th by 20 mph most times.
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  #163  
Old 03-14-2016, 07:53 AM
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Re: 2014 Gear Shift Confusion

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Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post
Further, unless you live in Kansas, you'll never be able to sit in 8th gear anywhere long enough to get real benefit from it. Even on roads with slight inclines, my Jeep automatic transmission constantly wants 7th to maintain speed and even 6th or 5th on steeper hills. The problem is, it's often not necessary to downshift, but the stupid transmission does it anyway, even in so-called "eco" mode. A little uphill slope - downshift. Press the gas the slightest little bit - downshift. Lower RPMs are useless if the Jeep hates being at them.
I live in the Mississippi River valley of western WI. It's pretty hilly here. There are a couple of big ones I cross regularly where the trans will downshift to 6th, which is to be expected. The only time I encounter my trans wanting to downshift to 7th on a slight incline or under acceleration is when it's extremely cold out or there's a helluva headwind. Other than that I've always been amazed at how well it holds 8th around here.
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  #164  
Old 03-14-2016, 11:01 AM
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Re: 2014 Gear Shift Confusion

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Originally Posted by MDBones View Post
I live in the Mississippi River valley of western WI. It's pretty hilly here. There are a couple of big ones I cross regularly where the trans will downshift to 6th, which is to be expected. The only time I encounter my trans wanting to downshift to 7th on a slight incline or under acceleration is when it's extremely cold out or there's a helluva headwind. Other than that I've always been amazed at how well it holds 8th around here.
I suppose it's a matter of what you consider a slight incline, but one of the roads I take into work has a couple and if I don't lock it into 8th with the paddles, it will jump to 7th every time despite have more than enough grunt to handle it.

It's actually annoying how un-eco eco mode actually is compared to regular mode. In fact, the only difference I can see between the two is there's a little more delay in regular mode before the Jeep shifts into 7th or 8th compared to eco mode. In my opinion, eco mode should shave off at least an extra 100RPM off several of the gear changes and start off in 2nd gear by default. Further, it needs to be a lot less aggressive when downshifting on hills.
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  #165  
Old 03-16-2016, 08:51 AM
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Re: 2014 Gear Shift Confusion

@NetworkTV

I am confused by your conflicting viewpoints. It appears to me that you are unhappy with your gearbox which in fact might surely be the case but may also indicate some problem with the Jeep.

Glad you're not disputing my numbers. And I don't dispute that they added a lower gear and also an ultra tall one, and that the Jeep would have been working fine with just six gears.

But what confuses me is your position relative to the fact that you end up in 4th at 20-30 mph. That is normal fuel saving behavior and accounts for stop and go and urban traffic. The next 3 gears could really be overdrive gears on cars from 10 years ago. These closely spaced first 3 or 4 gears helps keep the RPM low. Shift to sport and now the same gears have you at the beginning of the power band. ZF transmission is brilliant.

As for your claim that you are not seeing 8th unless driving in flatland Kansas, I think you should visit a dealership. I know there is a subset of folks here unhappy with their gearboxes, and if I were to speculate, they are owners of the late MY 2014 cars. Not sure if my early MY 2014 (April 2013 build) has more ZF parts inside than the Kokomo Indiana built ones or whatever the case but if I am in ECO, it takes acceleration or steep incline to take me out of 8th gear.

In 2013, shortly after taking ownership, we drove out West to Wyoming. Car full of people, luggage, 10 days, up a few mountains in Colorado, a few more in Wyoming, competitive speeds to eat the distance. The whole experience. I averaged 25.8 mpg on dash board, closer to 25 in pen and paper calculations. My exploits are documented here, on the site. If that ZF tranny were not fantastic at maximizing the fuel economy, it surely wasn't the heavy load, the high speeds and the Trail Ridge Road.
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  #166  
Old 03-16-2016, 09:26 AM
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Re: 2014 Gear Shift Confusion

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Originally Posted by f1anatic View Post
But what confuses me is your position relative to the fact that you end up in 4th at 20-30 mph. That is normal fuel saving behavior and accounts for stop and go and urban traffic. The next 3 gears could really be overdrive gears on cars from 10 years ago. These closely spaced first 3 or 4 gears helps keep the RPM low. Shift to sport and now the same gears have you at the beginning of the power band. ZF transmission is brilliant.
I didn't say 20-30 MPH - I said 20MPH.

4th gear would be at around 30-35 for most 5 speed transmissions. I'm in 7th by 40MPH unless I'm trying to accelerate rapidly. I'd be in 5th at the same speed in a 5 speed, and its only about 500 RPM difference between the Jeep and my 5 speed F-150. Savings in 7th verses 5th in another vehicle? Yes, but not much on a 4500lb vehicle.

What that means is 8th is the only real valuable addition which allows the lower RPMs at highway speed, but the problem is, around here, it chokes on any hill, losing enough speed to necessitate downshifting to 7th. It's down to 6th gear on anything with a truck lane, but that's only if I shift it manually. At the same speeds and RPMs, the automatic tranny wants to jump to 5th for no good reason. This is compare to almost never needing to leave 5th gear in my F-150. If left to its own devices, my V6 Jeep is now getting as poor mileage as my V8 pickup. The result is, once I hit cruising speed on the highway, I flip to manual mode and only shift when I need to in order to maintain speed.

That's why an automatic will never achieve the same fuel economy that can be achieved shifting manually. Automatics always favor performance over fuel economy. It's assumed people want more power, even when it's not needed.
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  #167  
Old 03-16-2016, 09:54 AM
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Re: 2014 Gear Shift Confusion

Do any Hemi drivers have the same problem? Our ecodiesel only drops out of 8th on long, steep mountain passes when we are at highway/freeway speeds.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post
What that means is 8th is the only real valuable addition which allows the lower RPMs at highway speed, but the problem is, around here, it chokes on any hill, losing enough speed to necessitate downshifting to 7th. It's down to 6th gear on anything with a truck lane, but that's only if I shift it manually. At the same speeds and RPMs, the automatic tranny wants to jump to 5th for no good reason. This is compare to almost never needing to leave 5th gear in my F-150. If left to its own devices, my V6 Jeep is now getting as poor mileage as my V8 pickup. The result is, once I hit cruising speed on the highway, I flip to manual mode and only shift when I need to in order to maintain speed.

That's why an automatic will never achieve the same fuel economy that can be achieved shifting manually. Automatics always favor performance over fuel economy. It's assumed people want more power, even when it's not needed.
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  #168  
Old 03-16-2016, 10:16 AM
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Re: 2014 Gear Shift Confusion

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Do any Hemi drivers have the same problem? Our ecodiesel only drops out of 8th on long, steep mountain passes when we are at highway/freeway speeds.
I would guess not so much.

Granted, I'm not surprised it needs to drop out of 8th with the V6 considering the Jeep actually weighs more than my V8 F150 and 8th gear is a good 1000rpm lower than 5th gear in my F150 at the same speed. I'm OK with having to jump to 7th, with the occasional jump to 6th for larger hills with truck lanes.

My only issue is how often it wants to jump down more gears than necessary to maintain speed. On large hills, I've had it jump to 5th or even 4th in some cases, which is complete overkill.

I've run into that with nearly every automatic with a smaller engine I've driven, though. 4 Cylinder engines are the worst of the lot, allowing the engines to sound like squealing pigs on hills or under hard acceleration. The transmissions seem to be designed that every time you give it more gas, it sets itself up to race someone. It's like they assume people won't be happy with a smaller engine if it doesn't move like a V8.
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