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  #37  
Old 01-19-2012, 09:58 AM
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Re: Afraid to Buy a 2012 GC

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Originally Posted by hammer1234 View Post
To each their own, but I test drove each vehicle (actually the Pathfinder was the V6) and neither have the refinement of the Jeep. Didn't like the new 4Runner at all.
I don't like the new 4Runner either. They completely messed up the styling and they went backwards (features-wise) from the prior generation. Still though, the OP made the assertion that there were no Japanese SUVs that compete with the Grand Cherokee, and I thought it was funny that he completely missed the 4Runner after mentioning the Toyota Land Cruiser.
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  #38  
Old 01-19-2012, 10:00 AM
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Re: Afraid to Buy a 2012 GC

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Originally Posted by walterhudson View Post
As well as the V8 Pathfinder
Did you see the all-new Pathfinder coming out next year? It looks like a swoopy station wagon instead of an SUV.
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  #39  
Old 01-19-2012, 11:28 AM
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Re: Afraid to Buy a 2012 GC

I'm considering the JGC as well. You might want to consider holding off until Jeep fixes the broken seat rail issue that was discovered by EuroNCAP in a crash test this past November. No word from EuroNCAP yet as to whether it's been fixed; if Jeep hasn't fixed it by the time I'm ready to buy, unfortunately I'll have to look elsewhere. :-/
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  #40  
Old 01-19-2012, 11:42 AM
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Re: Afraid to Buy a 2012 GC

The 4Runner and Pathfinder do not compete with the new GC. Neither has the upscale interior. They have pretty crumby dynamics on the highway. Neither has the ride quality or the full measure of what can be accomplished with the Qaudra Lift. In fact the Jeep should be better in the snow that the Landcruiser since it has greater ground clearance with the lift. The Landcruiser's weight might give it the edge in some situations.
I'm seeking snow ability, luxury, road manners...in one vehicle.

Cheers,

Robert B
NY
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  #41  
Old 01-19-2012, 11:42 AM
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Re: Afraid to Buy a 2012 GC

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Originally Posted by JeepersCreepers View Post
I'm considering the JGC as well. You might want to consider holding off until Jeep fixes the broken seat rail issue that was discovered by EuroNCAP in a crash test this past November. No word from EuroNCAP yet as to whether it's been fixed; if Jeep hasn't fixed it by the time I'm ready to buy, unfortunately I'll have to look elsewhere. :-/
Only got Four stars. The horror!!!

Kind of like a sales satisfaction survey, only a 10 is acceptable...1-9 failing.
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  #42  
Old 01-19-2012, 11:51 AM
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Re: Afraid to Buy a 2012 GC

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Originally Posted by CaptRB View Post
The 4Runner and Pathfinder do not compete with the new GC. Neither has the upscale interior. They have pretty crumby dynamics on the highway. Neither has the ride quality or the full measure of what can be accomplished with the Qaudra Lift. In fact the Jeep should be better in the snow that the Landcruiser since it has greater ground clearance with the lift. The Landcruiser's weight might give it the edge in some situations.
I'm seeking snow ability, luxury, road manners...in one vehicle.

Cheers,

Robert B
NY
You might not want to admit it, but the fact of the matter is that the 4Runner is absolutely a direct competitor to the Grand Cherokee. Those two vehicles go head-to-head for buyers in the midsize SUV market. Both are similar size, similar price, and offer similar 4wd systems. The biggest difference is probably the fact that Toyota differentiates their models more than Jeep. If you want the best offroad 4Runner, you get the Trail Edition. If you want the most luxurious 4Runner, you get the Limited. If you want something in the middle, get the SR5.

If you don't like the 4Runner, that's fine. But don't confuse your personal preferences with the fact that the 4Runner is Toyota's direct competitor for the Grand Cherokee.
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  #43  
Old 01-19-2012, 12:07 PM
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Re: Afraid to Buy a 2012 GC

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Originally Posted by Nigh****ch View Post
Only got Four stars. The horror!!!

Kind of like a sales satisfaction survey, only a 10 is acceptable...1-9 failing.
Did you bother reading the crash test comments?

"In the frontal impact, the driver's inboard seat rail was found to have very nearly broken in two, and was mainly held together only by the threaded steel rod which controls fore-aft adjustment of the seat. The break occurred just at the point where the lower anchorage for the driver's seat belt attaches to the rail, and is thought to have been caused by the high tensile forces in the belt during the test. As a result, there was additional forward movement of the dummy which contributed to 'bottoming out' of the airbag i.e. there was insufficient pressure in the airbag to prevent the driver's head from making contact, through the fabric of the airbag, with the steering wheel rim. Euro NCAP has been informed that Jeep are investigating the cause of the seat rail failure and intend to improve the seat track design, but have no current plans to re-work existing vehicles."

Something as basic and vitally important to occupant safety as a seat rail / seat belt anchorage breaking in a crash test (at only 40MPH, equivalent to two of the same cars hitting head-on at 35MPH) is unacceptable and failing, in my opinion. I would expect something like that to happen on a Japanese vehicle from the 80s/early 90s, not a Jeep from 2010s.

And also, while four stars isn't "horrible", I don't think it's unreasonable to expect all new cars to get 5/5 stars, especially since it's not like these crash tests are anything new -- they've been around for a while. That being said, from EuroNCAP's comments, it sounds like if that seat rail didn't nearly break in two causing excessive dummy forward movement, the JGC probably would've gotten 5/5 stars.

Finally, just to be clear, I love love love the WK2 and think it's the nicest looking SUV out on the market today. I'm going to be buying a vehicle later this year and I'd really love for it to be the WK2. But again, if Jeep hasn't fixed the issue by then, I'll have to look elsewhere. The last thing I want is for my seatbelt to be rendered nearly useless in a crash because the seat rail snapped in two.
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  #44  
Old 01-19-2012, 12:26 PM
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Re: Afraid to Buy a 2012 GC

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepersCreepers View Post
Did you bother reading the crash test comments?

"In the frontal impact, the driver's inboard seat rail was found to have very nearly broken in two, and was mainly held together only by the threaded steel rod which controls fore-aft adjustment of the seat. The break occurred just at the point where the lower anchorage for the driver's seat belt attaches to the rail, and is thought to have been caused by the high tensile forces in the belt during the test. As a result, there was additional forward movement of the dummy which contributed to 'bottoming out' of the airbag i.e. there was insufficient pressure in the airbag to prevent the driver's head from making contact, through the fabric of the airbag, with the steering wheel rim. Euro NCAP has been informed that Jeep are investigating the cause of the seat rail failure and intend to improve the seat track design, but have no current plans to re-work existing vehicles."

Something as basic and vitally important to occupant safety as a seat rail / seat belt anchorage breaking in a crash test (at only 40MPH) is unacceptable and failing, in my opinion. I would expect something like that to happen on a Japanese vehicle from the 80s/early 90s, not a Jeep from 2010s.

And also, while four stars isn't "horrible", I don't think it's unreasonable to expect all new cars to get 5/5 stars, especially since it's not like these crash tests are anything new -- they've been around for a while. That being said, from EuroNCAP's comments, it sounds like if that seat rail didn't nearly break in two causing excessive dummy forward movement, the JGC probably would've gotten 5/5 stars.

Finally, just to be clear, I love love love the WK2 and think it's the nicest looking SUV out on the market today. I'm going to be buying a vehicle later this year and I'd really love for it to be the WK2. But again, if Jeep hasn't fixed the issue by then, I'll have to look elsewhere. The last thing I want is for my seatbelt to be rendered nearly useless in a crash because the seat rail snapped in two.
Did you bother reading that the test was on a 2011?

Did you bother reading that euroncap.com is: "THE OFFICIAL SITE OF THE EUROPEAN NEW CAR ASSESSMENT PROGRAMME"?

They certainly don't seem to test very many vehicles - especially european ones. The last Land Rover tested was a 2002 Range Rover and a 2006 Discovery. The only other post 2009 large off-road 4X4 they've tested is a 2011 Mercedes Benz M-Class.

The review does not say the seat rail snapped in two.
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  #45  
Old 01-19-2012, 01:09 PM
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Re: Afraid to Buy a 2012 GC

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Did you bother reading that the test was on a 2011?
Just so you know -- my "did you bother" comment was in response to Nigh****ch's comment, which I thought was sarcastic and a little biting. I wouldn't have said it like that otherwise.

Yes, I did read that the test was on a 2011 (less than two months ago), but the comment:

"Euro NCAP has been informed that Jeep are investigating the cause of the seat rail failure and intend to improve the seat track design, but have no current plans to re-work existing vehicles."

Seems to imply that the problem also exists on 2012 models up to this point; otherwise you would think it'd say something like "Jeep improved the seat track design in 2012 models but has no current plans to re-work existing 2010/2011 vehicles".

Quote:
Did you bother reading that euroncap.com is: "THE OFFICIAL SITE OF THE EUROPEAN NEW CAR ASSESSMENT PROGRAMME"?
Yes.

Quote:
They certainly don't seem to test very many vehicles - especially european ones. The last Land Rover tested was a 2002 Range Rover and a 2006 Discovery. The only other post 2009 large off-road 4X4 they've tested is a 2011 Mercedes Benz M-Class.
They haven't tested many new large off-road 4x4's as of yet (my guess is because they're not as popular in Europe), but they've tested plenty of new (2009+) cars in the other classes. 13 in the "small" off-road 4x4 class, 22 in the large family car class, etc.

I don't see how that's relevant, anyway: first of all EuroNCAP is well known and respected around the world; it's also acknowledged fairly often (in a good light) by the IIHS, which is of course a US organization. In fact the EuroNCAP frontal crash test is almost identical to IIHS's.

Second, Jeep told EuroNCAP that they "intend to improve the seat track design", which again seems to be an acknowledgement that the problem is a real one.

Quote:
The review does not say the seat rail snapped in two.
There was a break; it says "very nearly broken in two, and was mainly held together only by the threaded steel rod which controls fore-aft adjustment of the seat". The test simulates two of the same cars crashing into each other at 35MPH. So if the rail "very nearly" breaks completely in two at 35MPH, what happens in a 40MPH+ crash, which are not at all uncommon? How about if the person sitting in the front seat happens to be a bit heavier than the test dummy used?

I don't think we should be making excuses for Jeep in this situation, or try to make it seem like EuroNCAP is some fly by night that obviously doesn't know what they're doing and that's why this happened, or pretend that a broken seat rail in a fairly low-speed crash isn't a serious safety issue. I think the problem is a real one and were it not for EuroNCAP, it's likely that no one (including Jeep) would know about it until it was too late. Now that EuroNCAP discovered the issue, they brought it to the attention of Jeep, who is now working on a fix to implement in new models -- kudos to Jeep for not ignoring the problem.

All that being said, the problem could very well be one that rarely occurs in the real world. After all, NHTSA didn't report this happening in their (slightly tamer) crash test. Maybe it was just a fluke and the stars happened to align for EuroNCAP's crash test. Let's hope so. Still, I won't be comfortable buying until Jeep improves the design and EuroNCAP tests the fixed model, because unless EuroNCAP somehow got a bum GC, the fact that it happened in that test means there is the possibility that it'll happen again.
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  #46  
Old 01-19-2012, 01:30 PM
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Re: Afraid to Buy a 2012 GC

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Originally Posted by MSCA View Post
You might not want to admit it, but the fact of the matter is that the 4Runner is absolutely a direct competitor to the Grand Cherokee. Those two vehicles go head-to-head for buyers in the midsize SUV market. Both are similar size, similar price, and offer similar 4wd systems. The biggest difference is probably the fact that Toyota differentiates their models more than Jeep. If you want the best offroad 4Runner, you get the Trail Edition. If you want the most luxurious 4Runner, you get the Limited. If you want something in the middle, get the SR5.

If you don't like the 4Runner, that's fine. But don't confuse your personal preferences with the fact that the 4Runner is Toyota's direct competitor for the Grand Cherokee.


I respectfully disagree. I drove the new Limited 4Runner and it felt like a truck. Handling was surprisingly poor and the cabin decidely cheap. It felt hugely less refined. While these two SUVs may compete on paper, a test drive of both will prove how far apart they truly are. Also: Comparing the ability in the snow is another factor that really places the Jeep in a different class.

Robert B
NY
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  #47  
Old 01-19-2012, 02:04 PM
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Re: Afraid to Buy a 2012 GC

I take it back. They don't even compete on paper! The loaded Overland GC offers too much in the way of 4X4 technology for the 4runner to come close.

;-)

Robert B
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  #48  
Old 01-19-2012, 02:46 PM
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Re: Afraid to Buy a 2012 GC

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Originally Posted by CaptRB View Post
I respectfully disagree. I drove the new Limited 4Runner and it felt like a truck. Handling was surprisingly poor and the cabin decidely cheap. It felt hugely less refined. While these two SUVs may compete on paper, a test drive of both will prove how far apart they truly are. Also: Comparing the ability in the snow is another factor that really places the Jeep in a different class.

Robert B
NY
Like I said, if YOU don't like the 4Runner, that's fine. But just because YOU don't like it doesn't mean it's not a competitor. Plenty of people cross shop both vehicles because they compete in the same market segment and for the same buyers.

And if you think the Grand Cherokee is in a different class when it comes to driving in the snow, you are sorely mistaken, I happen to own both vehicles in question and I can say with authority that they are very comparable. And to be completely fair, the WK2's snow capability depends largely upon the 4wd system, with QT1 being the least capable system. A Grand Cherokee with QT1 simply does not compare to a 4Runner. I know because I own one.

And by the way, the 4Runner IS a truck. It's a body-on-frame chassis with a fully boxed ladder frame underneath. And it has a live rear axle, not IRS. So yeah, it rides like a truck. I find mine very comfortable, even though I know it's a truck at heart.
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