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Old 01-20-2012, 12:05 PM
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Re: Afraid to Buy a 2012 GC

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Originally Posted by CaptRB View Post
Okay....let's take it from the top! And keep it friendly. Suggesting that I lied about test driving a car is a pretty sad way to discuss anything in a forum.
Well, I only said that because you seem to have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to 4Runners. Your info has been completely wrong.

Quote:

According to Carevos.com a redesign for the 4runner IS on the way, probably for 2013 or 2014 announcement.
Show me where they say that. In other words, post a link. But either way, let me educate you on the 4Runner and a typical 4Runner product cycle. The 4th generation 4Runner (which I own) was produced from 2003 - 2009. In 2006, they had a mid-cycle refresh, which means they slightly changed the looks by revising the headlights and bumpers, for the most part. This is very typical in the world of Toyota. The 5th generation (which started in the 2010 model year) isn't anywhere near a complete redesign. It hasn't even reached it's mid-cycle refresh yet. So expect to see the current generation until at least 2015 or 2016. If you go back and look at the history of 4Runners, that's how they've always done it. So just because Carevos.com says it doesn't mean it's true.

Quote:

You keep insisting that these two SUV's are the same, yet one has an adjustable air suspension and unibody while the other has a ladder frame and so on.
I never said they were the same. I never even implied they were the same. I simply said they compete in the same market segment. They are direct competitors. And that's a true fact. Just like the Camry competes with the Accord, the Grand Cherokee competes with the 4Runner.

Quote:

A 2007 GC had more in common with a 4runner of course. I'd suggest test driving the latest Limited 4runner against the 2012 Overland and you can tell me if you think they feel remotely the same. The air suspension is a game changer, even on the highway. The quiet interior and solid handling is FAR above the 4runner. See for yourself.
I'm not interested in a new Limited 4Runner. I no longer like the styling of them. I'm also not interested in the quadralift in the WK2. If I were buying a new WK2 tomorrow, it would not have quadralift. And from my own experience (yes, I've driven a WK2 with quadralift), the air suspension seems to make the suspension more harsh over bumps.

Quote:

True, for a consumer with minimal requirements, they might appear the same. Take a closer look and there's no question how far apart they now are. A new 4runner feels downright primitive at the wheel by comparison. Also: I started this thread because I've always owned Japanese cars and trusted them. You can bet that I would have LOVED for a 4Runner to win over the new Overland. It would have made my decision easier. In fact I still would have chosen the 4runner if it were a closer battle. But it's not. I have a seriously tough road to climb, especially in snow. We also want a road vehicle that has a lot of luxury. And we want to keep things in the 50K range as a top end.
You started this thread (according to your own words) because you were concerned with the reliability of buying a Jeep product compared to the bulletproof Japanese vehicles you have owned. And that's a real and valid concern. I certainly hope you have good luck with the Jeep that you buy, or you'll be in for a world of disappointment. My 4Runner is now almost 8 years old and it has been absolutely 100% bulletproof. It never once returned to the dealer since the say I drove it off the lot. My WK2 was purchased used from my aunt. She decided to get rid of it because of the problems she had with it. I purchased it from her knowing the history of the vehicle and I'm okay with that. Still though, I know already that my particular WK2 isn't going to compare to my 4Runner in terms of reliability.

Quote:

Have you actually driven and closely inspected what a new Overland can do?
Sorry, I'm not interested in an Overland. And here's a newsflash for you: the quadralift system isn't the end all/be all for the WK2. You seems to think the Overland with quadralift is somehow superior to all other WK2s.

Quote:

BTW, we are in Kent Cliffs, one of the highest points in our area. Snowfall is typically 30% worse here. Amazing since you can quite literally drive down our 2.4 mile road and find it just raining. If this was not the case I'd be getting a Q7!
I have a winter cabin near Syracuse. We get tons of snow there, although this year has been pretty tame so far. I have plenty of experience driving all kinds of trucks and SUVs in the snow...I've been doing it for more than 25 years now.


Robert B
NY[/QUOTE]
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  #62  
Old 01-20-2012, 12:26 PM
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Re: Afraid to Buy a 2012 GC

BTW, I just realized that you said you're from Kent Cliffs. That's east of Newburgh (and a little bit south), right? Where did you live before moving there? I ask because you're not in a bad snow area at all. You're basically in southern NY state. If you want to see bad winters in NY, you should go north and west. Try Syracuse and the surrounding area. Or even go west toward Buffalo and experience the constant lake-effect snow storms. You're basically west of Connecticut, for chrissakes! A Rav4 on all season tires can handle the typical winters that you get in your neck of the woods! Seriously!
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  #63  
Old 01-20-2012, 02:00 PM
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Re: Afraid to Buy a 2012 GC

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Originally Posted by MSCA View Post
BTW, I just realized that you said you're from Kent Cliffs. That's east of Newburgh (and a little bit south), right? Where did you live before moving there? I ask because you're not in a bad snow area at all. You're basically in southern NY state. If you want to see bad winters in NY, you should go north and west. Try Syracuse and the surrounding area. Or even go west toward Buffalo and experience the constant lake-effect snow storms. You're basically west of Connecticut, for chrissakes! A Rav4 on all season tires can handle the typical winters that you get in your neck of the woods! Seriously!


When we moved here from Queens snow meant very little to us. And we have friends in Mahopac who assured us that we had little to be concerned with. The first year all went well and our Subaru and Kia Sedona van did fine. A neighbor asked us if we planned to get something more snow-capable. I mentioned our friends in Mahopac and the neighbor said, rather dramatically, "This isn't Mahopac."
Oh boy. I paid little attention. The next winter taught us a few things. At our elevation of 950 feet we got 31 inches of snow in 40 hours. It crushed our two car garage and totalled the cars. The road was not passable for more than a day and we had no power for 4 days. The following year we had two more tough storms. Yet just a few miles away (and below) it was not even close to this. Last year both of our steel sheds were crushed by heavy snow and even with dedicated snow tires the Subaru and Outlander were useless. Our road was fine if you had about 10-11" clearance.
This past Halloween's freak snowstorm brought us 22-24" and we never got plowed. Power was out again for 4 days. My wife is an RN and got stuck at the bottom of our road with the Subaru, which did not have the clearance to make it. But a GC overland would have.
I've been sailing for 20 years. My 35 foot boat has been in a few storms, but there's always someone who pipes up and says "you've never been in a really bad storm!"
Uh, okay. Maybe you had it worse. Maybe your snow is heavier or deeper. When my cousin from Vermont saw the pics of our snow-devastated property he seemed pretty impressed. Snowfall and it's effects are part of a formula that includes what kind of road you're on, trees, plow schedules and so on. Make no mistake....we get some serious snow here. Our 2.4 mile road is narrow, winding and steady uphill. When there's snow on it everyone's vehicles have a challenge.

Robert B
NY
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  #64  
Old 01-20-2012, 02:09 PM
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Re: Afraid to Buy a 2012 GC

Sorry, I'm not interested in an Overland. And here's a newsflash for you: the quadralift system isn't the end all/be all for the WK2. You seems to think the Overland with quadralift is somehow superior to all other WK2s.>>>


We have a neighbor who lives about a mile away on the same road. During the last storm his Overland was one of the only SUV's that could go anywhere. He had raised to the max height to keep the bottom off the snow. Most of the others were stuck until the plow finally came. The bottoms of my Subaru and Outlander are ripped up from deep snow. He has skid plates and more clearance to cope.
Also: Can't agree with you on the air suspension on the road. I found the ride quite Mercedes like, providing a excellent balance. If you read the reviews then you already know that the GC with the air suspension is getting high marks. The steering feedback is shockingly good. That alone would convince an educated buyer. Just because two cars attract the same buyers don't put them in the same class. If I didn't need the Jeep's serious off road ability...I'd get the Q7, which is also in a different class. Though for 98% of the buyers they do the same things.

BTW: Went to look at a new LR4 and it would not start. We had breakfast and returned to the dealer to find that the test car had locked them out! So much for buying that SUV.




Robert B
NY
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  #65  
Old 01-20-2012, 07:23 PM
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Re: Afraid to Buy a 2012 GC

A Rav4 on all season tires can handle the typical winters that you get in your neck of the woods! Seriously!>>>


Wow. That kind of says it all. But not in a good way.

Enjoy your Toyota.


Robert B
NY
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  #66  
Old 01-20-2012, 08:11 PM
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Re: Afraid to Buy a 2012 GC

MSCA, what, did it take you all of 48 hours to revert to the following primary posting methods? These may include:

1) Presuming all of your opinions are facts, and

2) Therefore presuming others opinions are not only impossibly incorrect, but your incredulity literally turns into a demand for visual evidence, and

3) Lobbing schoolyard insults at detractors

For the benefit of and good humor of CaptRB, even hard proof of anything contrary to his own view will not sway MSCA. His persistence is boundless.

It took all manner of self restraint not to do this earlier, but I figured all bets were off given the gymnastics in this thread. If you aren't otherwise ADD, the following thread may provide some background and comic relief.

Pics of Overland with roof bike rack
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  #67  
Old 01-20-2012, 08:55 PM
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Re: Afraid to Buy a 2012 GC

LOL, Moosehead...
I knew it was a lost cause when he explained that my snow isn't all that bad, even when it's over three feet deep and crushing my garage and cars. Clearly I've made a huge error, as did most of my neighbors who drive some pretty big rigs. We all need to get Rav4's! Or maybe the Nissan Juke?
BTW, we are on a road called Richardsville. It's a steady climb into Kent Cliffs. There is only one way in or out and we're a 15 minute drive from picking up milk...or anything else. For NY it's very isolated and we get nothing short of astounding weather. We're among those people who actually need a Overland and will make use of that quadra lift.

As for the rest of it....what can I say? A 4runner is a good truck, but the new CG Overland is quite different for anyone who's an experienced driver expecting to use their native systems. I'm sure the 4runner works fine for him and it would work here as well...most of the time, just like our nice Mitsubishi Outlander. We're buying the Overland because we've learned the hard way that "most of the time" is a really bad plan.

We're expecting snow tonight, but not much! Outside of that huge storm before Halloween we've been very lucky this year. In fact the lack of snow (so far!) was what lured us into waiting until Spring or Summer to trade up.


Robert B
NY
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Old 01-21-2012, 10:36 AM
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Re: Afraid to Buy a 2012 GC

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptRB View Post
When we moved here from Queens snow meant very little to us. And we have friends in Mahopac who assured us that we had little to be concerned with. The first year all went well and our Subaru and Kia Sedona van did fine. A neighbor asked us if we planned to get something more snow-capable. I mentioned our friends in Mahopac and the neighbor said, rather dramatically, "This isn't Mahopac."
Oh boy. I paid little attention. The next winter taught us a few things. At our elevation of 950 feet we got 31 inches of snow in 40 hours. It crushed our two car garage and totalled the cars. The road was not passable for more than a day and we had no power for 4 days. The following year we had two more tough storms. Yet just a few miles away (and below) it was not even close to this. Last year both of our steel sheds were crushed by heavy snow and even with dedicated snow tires the Subaru and Outlander were useless. Our road was fine if you had about 10-11" clearance.
This past Halloween's freak snowstorm brought us 22-24" and we never got plowed. Power was out again for 4 days. My wife is an RN and got stuck at the bottom of our road with the Subaru, which did not have the clearance to make it. But a GC overland would have.
I've been sailing for 20 years. My 35 foot boat has been in a few storms, but there's always someone who pipes up and says "you've never been in a really bad storm!"
Uh, okay. Maybe you had it worse. Maybe your snow is heavier or deeper. When my cousin from Vermont saw the pics of our snow-devastated property he seemed pretty impressed. Snowfall and it's effects are part of a formula that includes what kind of road you're on, trees, plow schedules and so on. Make no mistake....we get some serious snow here. Our 2.4 mile road is narrow, winding and steady uphill. When there's snow on it everyone's vehicles have a challenge.

Robert B
NY
You literally live less than 40 miles away from me. For the most part, there will be very little difference between "your" snow and "my" snow. It just seems funny to me that you somehow seem to think you live in the heart of the snowbelt and have it worse than areas that get 10 times more snowfall on average.

But whatever....it's quite easy to look up average snowfall for any area. Numbers are numbers and they don't lie. Last winter was a heavy snowfall year for everyone around here. This year, not so much. And are you really trying to tell me that you got about two feet of snow from the late October storm? Seriously? You might want to rethink that statement because the records don't at all support what you're claiming.
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Old 01-21-2012, 10:45 AM
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Re: Afraid to Buy a 2012 GC

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptRB View Post


We have a neighbor who lives about a mile away on the same road. During the last storm his Overland was one of the only SUV's that could go anywhere. He had raised to the max height to keep the bottom off the snow. Most of the others were stuck until the plow finally came. The bottoms of my Subaru and Outlander are ripped up from deep snow. He has skid plates and more clearance to cope.




Robert B
NY
You are so hung up on ground clearance when it comes to snow driving. Let me help you out--- the most important thing for snow driving is tires. After that comes the 4wd system. Notice both of those things are related to traction, not ground clearance. The fact of the matter is that another couple of inches of ground clearance may be nice to have, but will make little difference in the grand scheme of things when driving in deep snow. I've driven through snow that was above my front bumper, almost as high as the headlights (and my headlights are about 34" above ground level).

So how is that possible if I didn't have enough ground clearance? Easy--the traction of the vehicle was great enough that it pushed through the snow, essentially plowing over it and pushing it to the sides.

I don't mean any disrespect, but I have the feeling that you're basically new to driving SUVs in snowy conditions. I say that because you seem to have a lack of experience based upon the things you say. Search YouTube and look for videos of SUVs plowing their way through deep snow. Then you'll see that ground clearance in snow isn't nearly as big of a deal as you're trying to make it out to be.
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Old 01-21-2012, 10:51 AM
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Re: Afraid to Buy a 2012 GC

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Originally Posted by moosehead View Post
MSCA, what, did it take you all of 48 hours to revert to the following primary posting methods? These may include:

1) Presuming all of your opinions are facts, and
Really? Facts? What's the matter, you can't debate without trying to turn it into a fact-finding mission? I've had no such presumptions. That said, if you want to prove my opinions wrong, feel free to try. I'm all ears.

Quote:

2) Therefore presuming others opinions are not only impossibly incorrect, but your incredulity literally turns into a demand for visual evidence, and
Visual evidence? Based upon what exactly?

Quote:

3) Lobbing schoolyard insults at detractors
Again, what? Where are the schoolyard insults?


Oh, I get it now. You're still sore about that whole thing. Sorry, but I got a kick out of it, especially the part with the video. I couldn't believe anyone would actually take it seriously enough to make and post a video. I got more laughs out of that thread than anything on this forum.
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Old 01-21-2012, 10:59 AM
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Re: Afraid to Buy a 2012 GC

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Originally Posted by CaptRB View Post
.... When my cousin from Vermont saw the pics of our snow-devastated property he seemed pretty impressed....

Robert B
NY

Hey, why don't you post those pictures on the forum? I'm sure we'd all be interesting in seeing them.
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Old 01-21-2012, 11:00 AM
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Re: Afraid to Buy a 2012 GC

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Originally Posted by MSCA View Post
Oh, I get it now.
Dubious. Another hundo says you get banned again, proceeds go to JG.


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I got more laughs out of that thread than anything on this forum.
On that we all can agree.
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