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  #517  
Old 02-10-2014, 02:54 PM
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Re: Changes for 2015?

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Originally Posted by Peter_K View Post
I'm not real keen on the calls certain people have for the widespread use of aluminum structurally. Especially in an off-road capable vehicle and for anyone that might use it as such. Land Rover might get away with it because it's clientele will generally not be doing as much with the vehicles--they simply cost too much. It might be interesting to see how many of the newer RRs are on the market for off-road use 7-10 years from now and how they are holding up structurally.

Things to keep in mind about aluminum:

1) Cost. Much more expensive
2) Fatigue limit and life is lower
3) Galvanic corrosion issues with the use of any dissimilar metals. Much more pronounced with widespread use.

Ford is already testing the limits with their new F-150 design and there are quite a few in the industry who are expecting some real issues on a vehicle that is extensively "used" so to speak.

People need to remember that there isn't any "miracle" substance. Going to aluminum will have tradeoffs. For example, while an all-aluminum engine can be made to last 150k-200k miles, that is generally pushing an upper limit. And you better not overheat it. Iron blocks last longer. Are easier to rebuild. And many last longer than the average. Now, none of that matters to the manufacturer--they are done with you cost-wise when you get out of warranty. But it might matter to you as the end user if you plan to keep a vehicle. Tradeoffs...always tradeoffs.

And where to you get your info??? For example, while an all-aluminum engine can be made to last 150k-200k miles, that is generally pushing an upper limit. And you better not overheat it. Really! I have had all aluminum BMW engines last for 250K miles w/o a rebuild and they had 1000+ hours of track time on them. I know BMW and GM V8s with 300K+ miles on them w/o any issues still going strong. Porsche has had all aluminum engines for decades some turbocharged 3.3l putting out over 800hp w/o any issues. And damn they air cooled. A well designed engine with an aluminum block will last just as long and maybe longer than a cast iron block.

Land Rover might get away with it because it's clientele will generally not be doing as much with the vehicles--they simply cost too much. It might be interesting to see how many of the newer RRs are on the market for off-road use 7-10 years from now and how they are holding up structurally. Again where do you get your info??? Land Rover has been using aluminum for years. Not doing as much please drop the bias and bigotry. Land Rover has done a hell lot more with the Range Rover Sport than the Jeep has with JGC.
Many Range Rover owners take their vehicles off road etc. BTW the first ever Land Rover prototype was made out of aluminum back in 1947 and the first Land Rovers had aluminum bodies.

Jeep has to move to aluminum to meet the new fuel mileage regs in 2018 and beyond.
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  #518  
Old 02-10-2014, 03:07 PM
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Re: Changes for 2015?

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Originally Posted by jp467 View Post
Really?? So the reason given for the driveshaft replacement was because its union made? Now was the driveshaft union made? Do you know? I am pretty sure the driveshaft is not made at the assembly plant. Are you saying it was the way the driveshaft was installed? Maybe the driveshaft came from a supplier that is non union? I don't know but its possible and I am pretty sure you don't know either. I think you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about.
It wasnt the shaft that failed. Damn hard for a driveshaft to fail in normal every day use. The installation wasnt done correctly which caused the shaft to fail. So who installed the shaft?
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  #519  
Old 02-10-2014, 03:36 PM
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Re: Changes for 2015?

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Originally Posted by Setoutguy View Post
It wasnt the shaft that failed. Damn hard for a driveshaft to fail in normal every day use. The installation wasnt done correctly which caused the shaft to fail. So who installed the shaft?
Explain something... How do you install a driveshaft wrong and then drive it 12k miles?
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  #520  
Old 02-10-2014, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_in_PA View Post

On the other hand, this would be detrimental to those who do some serious towing with their JGC. The mass is very helpful in controlling the larger loads, especially for stopping.
Having owned a Nissan Patrol for many years towing a large 21ft caravan and now owning and towing with a Jeep Grand Cherokee
I have to say towing with the Jeep is not as good as i thought it would be
The jeep appears due to its mass very twitchy when towing it is not as planted on the road

So i would agree if Jeep looses too much mass then towing a 3 ton caravan would be suicidal.
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  #521  
Old 02-10-2014, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlon_JB2 View Post
Regarding the new transmissions, you have to understand that Chrysler's plants are very near 100% capacity. They just bought a new transmission plant that will desperately be needed.

IMO, they sold way too much in the bankruptcy and was not expecting the industry to jump back like it has. All Chrysler really needed was some good vehicles, which they did not have previously. Soon, they will be able to build all of the transmissions they want. They have already been able to build many engines!

Weight loss, no comment, I don't have a clue right now.

Fiat influence? Yeah uh, you do realize that there was no merger, right? Chrysler and Fiat are still kinda free to do whatever they want.

See Renault and Nissan.
Sorry old mate
But i have to disagree Renault /Nissan has in Australia been a disaster
The wrong vehicles with Renault pushing their models into Australia
Bad

Jeep / Chrysler /Fiat
Back in the 60/70 Fiat was a fantastic innovative vehicle manufacturer with only one fault RUST.
Now days Fiat build rubbish - Boxes on wheels -
but they don't rust.

Not sure what will change but you can be sure Jeep/Chrysler will change
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  #522  
Old 02-10-2014, 04:04 PM
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Re: Changes for 2015?

Aluminum/magnesium - bumpers, doors, hood, trunk...
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  #523  
Old 02-10-2014, 04:17 PM
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Re: Changes for 2015?

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Originally Posted by bill_de View Post
What are commercial planes made out of? I thought they use a lot of aluminum, and they take a lot more abuse than most off road vehicles.


---
Believe it or not, they don't take more abuse as a general rule than a reasonably well-used off-road vehicle. People believe they do because many have an innate fear of flying and therefore assume the airframe is exposed to ridiculous stresses. Aircraft (passenger-type) spend most of their time exposed to relatively mundane stresses.

Even as such, aircraft have to undergo serious inspections and even structural component replacement after a few thousand hours of flight time.

Comparison-wise, an off-road vehicle (in terms of vehicle structural stress) is more aptly compared to a fighter-type or aerobatic aircraft. They aim for 5-8000 hours of airframe life in such aircraft. That's total life. Many structural components will be replaced and repaired in that timeframe due to structural fatigue.

The aircraft industry doesn't use aluminum because it's a magic bullet. They use it because, for the most part, they have to.
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  #524  
Old 02-10-2014, 04:27 PM
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Re: Changes for 2015?

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Originally Posted by Setoutguy View Post
And where to you get your info??? For example, while an all-aluminum engine can be made to last 150k-200k miles, that is generally pushing an upper limit. And you better not overheat it. Really! I have had all aluminum BMW engines last for 250K miles w/o a rebuild and they had 1000+ hours of track time on them. I know BMW and GM V8s with 300K+ miles on them w/o any issues still going strong. Porsche has had all aluminum engines for decades some turbocharged 3.3l putting out over 800hp w/o any issues. And damn they air cooled. A well designed engine with an aluminum block will last just as long and maybe longer than a cast iron block.
Generally, and as an industry average, no. Aluminum does not last as long as iron/steel in high-fatigue environments. It's simple metallurgy. You are mistaking what is being said here. "Issues" vs "longevity". Such engines have been used for years, indeed. Many have failed (percentage-wise, they fail in greater numbers at lesser mileage than iron motors). They also cost MUCH more.

Again, I'm not saying there aren't advantages to using aluminum. Just understand the tradeoffs.

Quote:
Land Rover might get away with it because it's clientele will generally not be doing as much with the vehicles--they simply cost too much. It might be interesting to see how many of the newer RRs are on the market for off-road use 7-10 years from now and how they are holding up structurally.

Again where do you get your info???
Twenty-five years of engineering. That's where I get my info. That's all, and you're getting much too worked up about this. It's TRADEOFFS. I didn't say there was no advantage. I just said there are DISADVANTAGES as well.

Quote:
Land Rover has been using aluminum for years. Not doing as much please drop the bias and bigotry. Land Rover has done a hell lot more with the Range Rover Sport than the Jeep has with JGC.
I do believe you sound terribly biased here. I'm not sure where "bigotry" comes in...more hyperbole? Come on.

Quote:
Many Range Rover owners take their vehicles off road etc.
Sure. After they are quite aged. I rarely have ever seen a newer RR being used off-road to any degree. My point was...it'll be interesting to see how these newer models age. I'm actually more interested to see how the Ford F-150s do.

Quote:
BTW the first ever Land Rover prototype was made out of aluminum back in 1947 and the first Land Rovers had aluminum bodies.
Bodies. Non-structural low-stress elements. If you note, I'm more critical of using it for STRUCTURAL elements in off-road vehicles. The originals were steel frame as their primary structural members.

Quote:
Jeep has to move to aluminum to meet the new fuel mileage regs in 2018 and beyond.
Lots of ways to do that that don't involve aluminum. Just relax--remember, there are ALWAYS tradeoffs. You can do lots with aluminum...and titanium...and magnesium.

The big element here is COST.
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  #525  
Old 02-10-2014, 04:28 PM
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Re: Changes for 2015?

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Originally Posted by Milous View Post
Aluminum/magnesium - bumpers, doors, hood, trunk...
Non-structural elements are always good uses for these materials. Costly, but good.
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  #526  
Old 02-10-2014, 05:56 PM
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Just to mention - very airplane in the world, wether a commercial airliner that takes off and lands multiple times a day or a jet fighter that pulls multiple g's with all the structural stress that comes with that are made from aluminum, the frame the envelope every single strut and beam - all aluminum.
And they last forever pretty much.
So if you know what you are doing both on building a uni frame car or an engine aluminum is better then steal from weight perspective.

Oh and to finish - Marlon come back - we all know that there it doesn't matter if the shop is union or not, it's the person that built the part that makes the difference!
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  #527  
Old 02-10-2014, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Setoutguy View Post
It wasnt the shaft that failed. Damn hard for a driveshaft to fail in normal every day use. The installation wasnt done correctly which caused the shaft to fail. So who installed the shaft?
That might be what the dealer told you but like someone else said, how do you install a driveshaft incorrectly? It wouldn't make it out of the plant installed wrong.
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  #528  
Old 02-10-2014, 08:35 PM
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Re: Changes for 2015?

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Originally Posted by scooterha View Post
Or the old shifter, the 14' shifter is awkward. At the same time though, I don't think you would want to overdue the cabin, having dials all over the place.
I love my '14 shifter more than the 2012 I had. I hated the clunk clunk of it. New electronic is awesome. Plus it doesn't move so you can keep your phone there whatever it never gets in the way
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