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  #37  
Old 11-27-2015, 02:33 PM
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Re: first post, seeking advice from current owners!

I always mod so leasing is out of the question.
Buying is the only option for me.

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  #38  
Old 11-27-2015, 03:12 PM
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Re: first post, seeking advice from current owners!

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Originally Posted by ylnad123 View Post
It just depends on the wants/needs of a person.
Here I have to agree. Most people allow their wants to exceed good financial judgment. That, along with the reality that it is far easier to spend the banks money, than it is your own.

Through the years car dealers have come up with 3 basic ways to financially get as much from you as humanly, (or legally), possible when you purchase a new car.

1.) Get you to pay the highest possible price for the car, regardless of how you're going to be paying for it. And at the same time convince you that you're getting a "good deal", of which there is no such thing. Just a smaller ratio of how badly you'll be screwed.

2.) Give you as little as possible for whatever it is you are trading in.

3.) After he accomplishes those 2 things, they will then turn you over to the "Finance Manager", who will make every attempt to rake you over the coals until you are well done on both sides, by charging as much as he possibly can for the financing...... Assuming you qualify. (Many today do not).

If you don't qualify, and he can't get you on any of the above 3, you used to be termed a lost cause, and you would be shown the door. Which then meant a trip to, "Joe's Used Cars" with the streamers and naked light bulbs. Along with the overweight salesman in the plaid suit, chomping on the cheap, fat cigar. Today these places have been "dressed up" a bit with joints like, "Drive Time", That make the experience of purchasing for the poor credit buyer a little more dignified. They at least have pavement under the buyers feet, instead of gravel, but they accomplish the same task.

But today many times that is no longer the case because of the number 4 method, which has become the most lucrative. The lease. The lease lures you in with a low down payment, which they term to be an, "Acquisition Fee". It's the same thing except usually smaller, and you will never see a dime of the money ever again. It goes directly into the dealers pocket, and buys you nothing except the "privilege" of obtaining the lease itself. The lease payments are also usually far lower, and as a result seem more affordable.

So now, the once unqualified buyer is suddenly greeted with the "privilege" of getting the car of their dreams with a seemingly lower down payment, along with a much smaller, more affordable monthly payment. It all seems too good to be true, because it most certainly is. Simply because after you pay out all of this money, and satisfied the terms of the "Acquisition Fee", along with the lease, you have to give the car back. You then are either faced with walking home, or else go through the same process all over again.

This is all occurring because of the fact we have become a nation of debtors. A full one third, (105,000,000) Americans are broke, and a single paycheck away from being homeless. A recent survey showed that Chase Bank denied over one third, (33.6%), of home loan applications. Other major banks were not far behind those figures. Many more of the ones who were initially accepted, were denied in underwriting, driving the overall percentage of rejections even higher.

Leases are not popular because they offer any financial advantage. Quite the direct opposite. They are popular because for many they are the last available option for getting into a new car, and being able to drive it off the lot without stealing it. Anything else is nothing more than smoke filled, coffee house crap.
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Old 11-27-2015, 03:33 PM
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Re: first post, seeking advice from current owners!

Quote:
Originally Posted by billt View Post
Here I have to agree. Most people allow their wants to exceed good financial judgment. That, along with the reality that it is far easier to spend the banks money, than it is your own.

Through the years car dealers have come up with 3 basic ways to financially get as much from you as humanly, (or legally), possible when you purchase a new car.

1.) Get you to pay the highest possible price for the car, regardless of how you're going to be paying for it. And at the same time convince you that you're getting a "good deal", of which there is no such thing. Just a smaller ratio of how badly you'll be screwed.

2.) Give you as little as possible for whatever it is you are trading in.

3.) After he accomplishes those 2 things, they will then turn you over to the "Finance Manager", who will make every attempt to rake you over the coals until you are well done on both sides, by charging as much as he possibly can for the financing...... Assuming you qualify. (Many today do not).

If you don't qualify, and he can't get you on any of the above 3, you used to be termed a lost cause, and you would be shown the door. Which then meant a trip to, "Joe's Used Cars" with the streamers and naked light bulbs. Along with the overweight salesman in the plaid suit, chomping on the cheap, fat cigar. Today these places have been "dressed up" a bit with joints like, "Drive Time", That make the experience of purchasing for the poor credit buyer a little more dignified. They at least have pavement under the buyers feet, instead of gravel, but they accomplish the same task.

But today many times that is no longer the case because of the number 4 method, which has become the most lucrative. The lease. The lease lures you in with a low down payment, which they term to be an, "Acquisition Fee". It's the same thing except usually smaller, and you will never see a dime of the money ever again. It goes directly into the dealers pocket, and buys you nothing except the "privilege" of obtaining the lease itself. The lease payments are also usually far lower, and as a result seem more affordable.

So now, the once unqualified buyer is suddenly greeted with the "privilege" of getting the car of their dreams with a seemingly lower down payment, along with a much smaller, more affordable monthly payment. It all seems too good to be true, because it most certainly is. Simply because after you pay out all of this money, and satisfied the terms of the "Acquisition Fee", along with the lease, you have to give the car back. You then are either faced with walking home, or else go through the same process all over again.

This is all occurring because of the fact we have become a nation of debtors. A full one third, (105,000,000) Americans are broke, and a single paycheck away from being homeless. A recent survey showed that Chase Bank denied over one third, (33.6%), of home loan applications. Other major banks were not far behind those figures. Many more of the ones who were initially accepted, were denied in underwriting, driving the overall percentage of rejections even higher.

Leases are not popular because they offer any financial advantage. Quite the direct opposite. They are popular because for many they are the last available option for getting into a new car, and being able to drive it off the lot without stealing it. Anything else is nothing more than smoke filled, coffee house crap.
I agree with you to a certain point, there are a lot of people that lease because they can't afford another option.

But I think you will be highly surprised how many leases are from people that can easily pay cash for the car as well. Maybe not specifically jeep, I don't know much about the jeep sales system.

But I have many friends that work with high end car sales, there leases are not from people that can't afford to purchase the car. There leases are from people that have different wants/needs. People don't want the same car for many years, people don't want to worry about reliability/maintenance, people don't want to hassle with selling the car privately when they are done with it. Or they would rather just invest that cash, and not put it into a depreciating asset.

There are many instances where leasing does actually make better financial sense deepening on what you are comparing it to.

I understand in your view it doesn't make any financial sense to own a car less than 5 years. But you can use the same reasoning that it doesn't make financial sense to buy a $50k jeep in the first place when you can buy a car for half that price.
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  #40  
Old 11-27-2015, 05:23 PM
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Re: first post, seeking advice from current owners!

The issue I have with the "100% depreciation" idea is that a lease isn't a buy/investment. it's a long term rental. From an accounting standpoint, depreciation is tied to an asset (the vehicle) and is borne by the vehicle owner...which is the leasing company. They account for that in how they calculate the lease/rental fee as mentioned previously, but for the lessee...there's zero actual depreciation since they don't own the asset.

I don't disagree that financially, leasing may not be the best decision for many folks, but for those that have a reason to lease, regardless of that reason, it's their decision to make.

I used to lease cars and at that time, it met my personal needs/wants to be able to drive a much nicer vehicle than I could have afforded to buy and finance and be able to change out to something different more frequently. I also wasn't driving very many miles, so the cost was even less as a result. When my driving pattern changed and I also gained the financial ability to have a reasonable down payment, I switched back to buying. Leasing wouldn't make any sense at all for me at this point, unless it was to gain some kind of extraordinary deal and then immediately finance a lease buy-out at a very low interest rate from my credit union. I put close to 20K miles a year on so buy works better. And I don't mind staying in the same vehicle for 5-7 years now, too.
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  #41  
Old 11-27-2015, 07:27 PM
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Re: first post, seeking advice from current owners!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ylnad123 View Post
I understand in your view it doesn't make any financial sense to own a car less than 5 years. But you can use the same reasoning that it doesn't make financial sense to buy a $50k jeep in the first place when you can buy a car for half that price.
I agree, and it really doesn't. If I had to do it all over again, I most likely would have bought something cheaper. I'm not disappointed with my new Jeep. It's a very nice vehicle. It's just hard for me to justify having that much money tied up in a car. Especially when, as you say, there are a lot of nice vehicles out there for half the price.

I'm 63 and have only had 4 new cars in my life, including this new Jeep. I'm still driving my last new one, (a 1991 F-150). If this new Jeep doesn't get wrecked or stolen, it will most likely be the last new car I ever buy. So for me it was a treat of sorts. But when you get right down to it, it's just another vehicle. Just a more expensive one with more crap on it.

As I got older new cars lost their allure. To me vehicles are a necessary evil. I enjoy taking care of them, and in the process making them last as long as possible. That way I don't have to waste any more money than I have to on them.
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Old 11-27-2015, 07:41 PM
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Re: first post, seeking advice from current owners!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_in_PA View Post
The issue I have with the "100% depreciation" idea is that a lease isn't a buy/investment. it's a long term rental. From an accounting standpoint, depreciation is tied to an asset (the vehicle) and is borne by the vehicle owner...which is the leasing company. They account for that in how they calculate the lease/rental fee as mentioned previously, but for the lessee...there's zero actual depreciation since they don't own the asset.
Everything you've said is technically true. In technical financial terms by taking out a lease, you yourself are not absorbing the actual depreciation. But you ARE paying for it. It's no different than a renter paying the landlord's mortgage. He's gaining while you're losing.

The fact is 100% of what you pay is gone, and you will never see a dime of it again.... Same as the tenant's rent checks. And you must remember this is going to amount to thousands of dollars over the term of the lease. All with no recourse. You are in essence paying for the car, but will never have a dimes worth of vested interest in it. It really is a losing deal all the way around.

And today, with the unlimited time and mileage warranties that are available at relatively low cost, maintenance is hardly an issue any longer. This regardless of how long you keep, or how far you drive the vehicle. It's covered. The person leasing isn't really gaining anything at all from that standpoint. Especially when you consider they can and will be assessed for every scratch, dent and stain on the vehicle when they turn it in. Or else have to fork up as much as .50 cents a mile if they go over the allotted miles. This alone can run into hundreds, if not thousands of dollars if you're exceptionally hard on the vehicle.
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  #43  
Old 11-28-2015, 11:14 AM
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Re: first post, seeking advice from current owners!

Quote:
Originally Posted by billt View Post
Everything you've said is technically true. In technical financial terms by taking out a lease, you yourself are not absorbing the actual depreciation. But you ARE paying for it. It's no different than a renter paying the landlord's mortgage. He's gaining while you're losing.
It doesn't matter whether you buy or lease, you will take the depreciation hit. If you buy you're taking the biggest hit simply by driving it off the lot. Plus the depreciation continues over the years you keep it. If you lease, you're payments are for a fixed depreciation over the length of your lease term only.

Quote:
The fact is 100% of what you pay is gone, and you will never see a dime of it again.... Same as the tenant's rent checks. And you must remember this is going to amount to thousands of dollars over the term of the lease. All with no recourse. You are in essence paying for the car, but will never have a dimes worth of vested interest in it. It really is a losing deal all the way around.
If you're obtaining financing to buy, think of what you pay over the course of a 5-6 year loan. You're paying sales tax (with or without a trade) and interest for that loan term. On a lease you're only paying interest and sales tax on your actual use of the vehicle.

Sure, if you keep the vehicle after it's paid off you'll have some equity in finally owning it. I don't think the majority today keep their vehicles long enough to gain much beyond whatever the trade in value happens to be on the next new one. But, that's still a plus for buying vs leasing.

Quote:
And today, with the unlimited time and mileage warranties that are available at relatively low cost, maintenance is hardly an issue any longer. This regardless of how long you keep, or how far you drive the vehicle. It's covered. The person leasing isn't really gaining anything at all from that standpoint. Especially when you consider they can and will be assessed for every scratch, dent and stain on the vehicle when they turn it in. Or else have to fork up as much as .50 cents a mile if they go over the allotted miles. This alone can run into hundreds, if not thousands of dollars if you're exceptionally hard on the vehicle.
The person leasing doesn't have to shell out $2K+ (plus tax) to buy an extended warranty. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe there's any extended warranty that covers everything as thoroughly as the standard factory 3/36 bumper to bumper warranty. For a leased vehicle nothing more is required.

Sure you can be assessed for every chip, scratch, dent and stain. They do make allowances for normal wear and tear so I don't believe this is as dramatic as you try to make it sound. Do you believe any of that can't also be factored into the appraisal value of a vehicle you purchased and now want to trade in?

Anyone getting into a lease and not setting it up based on their known annual mileage deserves to pay for exceeding it. But then, this is also a part of the decision making process one needs to make on whether to buy or lease.
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  #44  
Old 11-28-2015, 12:39 PM
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Re: first post, seeking advice from current owners!

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Originally Posted by MDBones View Post
It doesn't matter whether you buy or lease, you will take the depreciation hit. If you buy you're taking the biggest hit simply by driving it off the lot. Plus the depreciation continues over the years you keep it. If you lease, you're payments are for a fixed depreciation over the length of your lease term only.
That is all true. But regardless when you lease you get nothing back. 100% of what you pay is gone forever. Even if you finance at a high rate over a long term, eventually you will own the vehicle. Look up what a 3 or 4 year old Jeep Grand Cherokee is worth, and that is the exact amount you will have gained over the guy who leased and got back nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MDBones View Post
If you're obtaining financing to buy, think of what you pay over the course of a 5-6 year loan. You're paying sales tax (with or without a trade) and interest for that loan term. On a lease you're only paying interest and sales tax on your actual use of the vehicle.
Again all true. But even after sales tax and 5 years of interest, you still own the car. After you've satisfied the terms of the lease, you will have and own nothing. Not even a cab ride home from the dealer after you turn it in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MDBones View Post
Sure, if you keep the vehicle after it's paid off you'll have some equity in finally owning it. I don't think the majority today keep their vehicles long enough to gain much beyond whatever the trade in value happens to be on the next new one. But, that's still a plus for buying vs leasing.
You can't use foolish financial behavior to justify leasing. People who are constantly trading in vehicles after only 3 or 4 years of ownership are being financially foolish, period. Simply because they are taking the maximum amount of loss in depreciation, and spreading it out over a very short term.

If a car is well taken care of no one is going to know the difference anyway. If you put a 2009 and a 2013 Grand Cherokee next to each other, and both were well cared for, I couldn't tell you which was which. And I'm betting 85% of people out there couldn't either. These people are literally throwing away money just to have something "newer".

Cars today are more dependable, last longer, and have better warranties to back them up than ever before. It is nothing for a modern vehicle today to go well over 200,000 miles with regular routine maintenance, (which today is getting to be less and less), and reasonable care. As I said, people who trade in after just a few years, and 40K or 60K in mileage are just throwing away money, pure and simple.

If they have it to burn, that is fine. But they don't or else they wouldn't be financing or leasing in the first place. No one pays interest on a depreciating asset unless they have to, and have no other way to buy it. None of what I've just mentioned is a justifiable reason to lease.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MDBones View Post
The person leasing doesn't have to shell out $2K+ (plus tax) to buy an extended warranty. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe there's any extended warranty that covers everything as thoroughly as the standard factory 3/36 bumper to bumper warranty. For a leased vehicle nothing more is required.
What is going to break on a newly purchased vehicle under the factory warranty that won't be covered? The factory warranty is going to cover the owner as long or longer than the terms of most any lease.

Besides, a Lifetime Max Care Warranty with unlimited years and mileage is going to run a bit over $2K. You'll spend more than that on the "Acquisition Fee", just for the "privilege" of buying into the lease. And you're getting nothing for it, or a dime back.
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  #45  
Old 11-28-2015, 01:12 PM
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Re: first post, seeking advice from current owners!

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Originally Posted by MOFSTEEL View Post
I always mod so leasing is out of the question.
Buying is the only option for me.
Did you know that you can heavily modify any vehicle that you lease? You just might have issues turning the car back into the dealer after your 36 months is up and you walk away.

But who does that? That wouldn't be smart.

You could just trade your Jeep in if you want to get rid of it. To any dealership. Any brand. Or you could buy it for the payoff amount. Or you could sell it private party. And you'd probably have good 'equity' in it.

So many people don't understand this.
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  #46  
Old 11-28-2015, 02:26 PM
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Re: first post, seeking advice from current owners!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Copefree View Post
Did you know that you can heavily modify any vehicle that you lease? You just might have issues turning the car back into the dealer after your 36 months is up and you walk away.

But who does that? That wouldn't be smart.

You could just trade your Jeep in if you want to get rid of it. To any dealership. Any brand. Or you could buy it for the payoff amount. Or you could sell it private party. And you'd probably have good 'equity' in it.

So many people don't understand this.
I can also light it on fire and claim it with my insurance but that along with what your recommend is to put it bluntly ...stupid.

I always completely or partially part out my mods and sell private party. That way I lose the least amount possible.

So you see I do understand.
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Old 11-28-2015, 03:16 PM
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Re: first post, seeking advice from current owners!

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Did you know that you can heavily modify any vehicle that you lease?
Sure. And you can also renovate the house you are renting.
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Old 12-07-2015, 04:16 PM
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Re: first post, seeking advice from current owners!

I lease and plan on continuing to lease in the future.
My wife and I view cars as a service, not a good. The service provided is transportation.

How much are you willing to pay for your monthly transportation cost? You can think of it like a bus pass of sorts. You pay for the convenience of having your personal "bus" in your driveway or garage, to use whenever you need it. When leasing, you pay for peace of mind regarding reliability, and minimized maintenance costs. When purchasing, you are spreading out the cost of the service over time, but increase your risk of adding additional costs (repairs, etc.).

Chrysler Canada nor other third party companies offer lifetime warranties here. And as vehicles become increasingly too complex for the average shade tree mechanic, dealer visits become prohibitively expensive fast.

I don't think anyone here is disputing the concept of depreciation. Someone (the driver) ends up paying for it one way or another.

However, when talking finances, it is best to make your money work for you in the smartest way possible. In our case, the money we "save" from financing a vehicle versus the monthly leasing price is put towards an asset that appreciates in value over time: our condominium. From this perspective, we are already in a profitable position.

I'm glad both options are available to us. This way we can all enjoy our cars in the way that suits us financially.


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