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  #49  
Old 12-07-2015, 04:18 PM
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Re: first post, seeking advice from current owners!

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Originally Posted by billt View Post
Sure. And you can also renovate the house you are renting.

In Quebec, you can legally ask compensation from the landlord if you have made renovations to your rental unit. This compensation comes in the form of a royalty paid as a percentage and is dependent on the time the dwelling was occupied.


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  #50  
Old 12-07-2015, 05:25 PM
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Re: first post, seeking advice from current owners!

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Originally Posted by tiri View Post
In Quebec, you can legally ask compensation from the landlord if you have made renovations to your rental unit. This compensation comes in the form of a royalty paid as a percentage and is dependent on the time the dwelling was occupied.


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Do these renovations need to be approved by the owner?
...because if not that is one dumb law.

I can understand being compensated for changes that were approved but in no way would I reimburse for changes not wanted or needed.
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  #51  
Old 12-07-2015, 05:42 PM
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Re: first post, seeking advice from current owners!

Usually the tenant informs the landlord and obtains permission beforehand. I can confirm however that Quebec is the worst place to own rental property. Tenant laws are disproportionately in favour of tenants as opposed to the landlord. Unless you let luxury properties, avoid this line of business. Too many headaches.


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  #52  
Old 12-07-2015, 10:47 PM
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Re: first post, seeking advice from current owners!

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Originally Posted by tiri View Post
I lease and plan on continuing to lease in the future.
My wife and I view cars as a service, not a good. The service provided is transportation.

How much are you willing to pay for your monthly transportation cost? You can think of it like a bus pass of sorts. You pay for the convenience of having your personal "bus" in your driveway or garage, to use whenever you need it. When leasing, you pay for peace of mind regarding reliability, and minimized maintenance costs. When purchasing, you are spreading out the cost of the service over time, but increase your risk of adding additional costs (repairs, etc.).

Chrysler Canada nor other third party companies offer lifetime warranties here. And as vehicles become increasingly too complex for the average shade tree mechanic, dealer visits become prohibitively expensive fast.

I don't think anyone here is disputing the concept of depreciation. Someone (the driver) ends up paying for it one way or another.

However, when talking finances, it is best to make your money work for you in the smartest way possible. In our case, the money we "save" from financing a vehicle versus the monthly leasing price is put towards an asset that appreciates in value over time: our condominium. From this perspective, we are already in a profitable position.

I'm glad both options are available to us. This way we can all enjoy our cars in the way that suits us financially.


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+1

While leasing is not for everyone it can be a good option for many buyers. Those who opt for this type of financing should fully understand how the numbers (m.f., residual, cap cost, etc.) work. Otherwise the advantage goes to the dealer. I have purchased many vehicles and have paid cash for some, used traditional financing and leased. My current JGC was acquired using a 3 year lease. It works for my requirements today.

I read the (many) messages from billt and understand his position. Though, in my opinion, a lot of his statements are incorrect as it pertains to leasing.

OP, to answer your original question, my preference in the beginning was to purchase an Overland. I prefer the exterior styling vs. the Summit. Now that I have the Summit, I still prefer the Overland's exterior styling but prefer the added features in the Summit. I also have the Hemi. For me, it's worth the extra cost just for the sound, feel and acceleration when driving on the interstate.
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  #53  
Old 12-08-2015, 06:29 AM
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Re: first post, seeking advice from current owners!

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I read the (many) messages from billt and understand his position. Though, in my opinion, a lot of his statements are incorrect as it pertains to leasing.
Such as?
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  #54  
Old 12-08-2015, 07:55 AM
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Re: first post, seeking advice from current owners!

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Originally Posted by billt View Post
Such as?
Simply taking points that you made in various posts and in no specific order.

1) Acquisition Fee, while this is associated with some leases it's not a given that every lease will have it. This is the bank fee, at times, charged by the lender. The dealer has the option of marking up the fee. I agree with your general statement that it is "dead" money. This should be taken into consideration before committing to a deal. I didn't pay one with my current JGC but did with my recent BMW.

2) Over mileage fee and fees due to damage (scratches, dents, stains, etc.) when turning in the vehicle. Most finance companies allow a certain level of wear and tear including scratches. Prior to lease end, they'll provide a document outlining accepted levels of damage. In-terms of being over the allowable miles, the cost is usually .25 cents per mile. Some companies will allow the purchase of additional miles at a lower rate prior to lease end.

3) Easier to get a approved for a lease vs. traditional financing. Not true at all. With most finance companies they will have tougher standards for leasing including credit score. With traditional financing, if suspect credit, often can be addressed with a higher down payment and/or interest rate. Assuming both forms are evaluated equally (i.e. no cash down), a lease payment will be lower benefitting the DTI calculation.

4) You pay for 100% of the depreciation and there is nothing to show for it at lease end. Well on the first point, you are paying for the calculated depreciation. On my JGC, I believe this was 57% (from MSRP) over 3-years. The finance company, Ally, believes it will be worth this amount. Perhaps it will but there's also a chance that it will be lower. As an example, if in that time we are in a recession or fuel cost significantly increase, the demand for JGC's could (most likely would) decrease. Instead of 57%, now it's 50%. I am now insulated from the lower market value and I don't take financial hit. If it swings the other way I can sell it or buy it out vs. giving it back to the leasing company.

5) 0% Financing, I agree with your point that it is "bait-n-switch" and usually applies to non or slow moving inventory. It could also be for vehicles near the end of the production and/or year-end but coupled with a shorter term (i.e. 3 years). Whether lease or finance, the dealer can mark-up the m.f./interest rate. If leasing, before talking to a salesperson, the buyer must know the base m.f. If using traditional financing, use your Credit Union or open an account with one. It's not uncommon to see 2-2.5% for 60-72 months. With the current rates being so low, it is almost like paying cash.

In general, before a buyer starts working with a dealer, they should know the facts including MSRP vs. invoice and available incentives. If leasing, how to calculate a lease payment and know the terms and values (i.e. base m.f., acquisition fee, etc.). A lease is not the perfect answer to every buying opportunity but it does work in a lot of situations. The buyer should be educated before committing to one type of financing or another.

For me, I like driving something new every 2-3 years. Though I have the means to use traditional financing or pay cash. I just don't want to tie-up my capital in a depreciating asset. I understand that for some a vehicle is either a status symbol or waste of money. To a point, I would agree. But I spend enough time in my car(s) to want something this is comfortable, reliable, safe and have most of the current technology (except for some of the driver aides). Plus my primary vehicle is a tax write-off.
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  #55  
Old 12-08-2015, 09:31 AM
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Re: first post, seeking advice from current owners!

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Originally Posted by NHman View Post
For me, I like driving something new every 2-3 years. Though I have the means to use traditional financing or pay cash. I just don't want to tie-up my capital in a depreciating asset. I understand that for some a vehicle is either a status symbol or waste of money. To a point, I would agree. But I spend enough time in my car(s) to want something this is comfortable, reliable, safe and have most of the current technology (except for some of the driver aides). Plus my primary vehicle is a tax write-off.
This is the only part where I can see that you don't give yourself much choice or leeway. The fact is if you feel you won't be happy in life unless you have a new car every couple of years, then you can possibly make an argument in favor of leasing. It really doesn't mean much either way because of how much it's going to cost you regardless if you buy or lease.

Life is not always dictated by needs. People want nice things to be happy, new cars among them. I get that part. I also get there is no way you can drive a new vehicle every few years without it costing you a small fortune. This regardless of how you do it. Again this is simple economic fact.

New vehicles depreciate at a very high rate during the term of a lease, or the first 2 or3 years of ownership. There is no way around it. The only way this can be offset is with high monthly payments. With a lease these payments will never end. You will simply move from one car to the next every few years, dropping hundreds of dollars every month for the "privilege" of doing it. With financing every couple of years, much the same will happen. If you pay cash, you'll take a bath at trade in time. It's why "New Car Replacement" on insurance policies only lasts 12 months. After that it becomes too much of a risk, simply because they are too expensive to replace after that.

The only "benefit" you will receive from all of this is the ability to drive a new or newer car that you will never own. If that doesn't bother you, and you won't be happy without it, then you don't have much of a choice but to go with it.

The problem I have with any or all of this, is the tremendous cost that multiplies over the years of doing this. Don't get me wrong, I like new cars as much as the next guy. But "trading in" every few years is burning money in order to do it. Leasing results in much the same, if not a greater loss financially. Depreciation tapers off as the car gets older, until it all but stops. The longer you drive it, the longer you spread out the loss. The cost over the same period of time is far less because you are getting far more use from the vehicle without paying constantly for it at such an exorbitant rate every month.

I have a neighbor who, along with his wife, both lease every few years. I can't count the number of new vehicles they've gone through over the 18+ years we've lived next door to each other. We're both average, middle class working guys. I've purchased one new car during that entire time, the new Jeep I just bought. If he were to add up all of the payments they've both made on all of those cars, over all of those years, he could easily have paid off his home, and then some. We are the same age. I retired at 62 almost a year ago. He's still working with both a mortgage and car payments on 2 vehicles. He asked me one day how I "pulled off" such an early retirement. I simply told him I don't buy new cars every 15 minutes.

Call me crazy, but I just cannot see spending that kind of money just for the sake of driving around in a new car. Especially living out here in Arizona where a vehicle will all but last indefinitely if it's garaged, and well taken care of. Now I'm not working any more, plus I've got more time to drive and enjoy my brand new paid for Jeep. I call it the best of both worlds.
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  #56  
Old 12-08-2015, 10:44 AM
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Re: first post, seeking advice from current owners!

You touched on a point Bill, at the very end. Living in Arizona, your car doesn't take as much abuse as a car would in harsh winter climes where roads are salted. Cars don't last as long here.

Furthermore, leasing a Chrysler product makes more sense than leasing a Toyota. One will be much more reliable than the other and the overall costs associated with the lifetime of the product should influence the decision to buy or lease as well.

For example, in my building, the eight or nine Range Rovers all have commercial license plates, typical of leased vehicles. Buying a LRRR would be folly. The Lexii on the other hand run the spectrum of new to old because people hold on to them.

To reiterate an earlier point I made, we have lower monthly payments for the car through leasing, which frees up money to pay down the mortgage (an appreciating asset), faster. It seems your neighbours are living above their means if they still have mortgage payments when they should be retiring.

We see transportation as a service, not a good. If you prefer to see it as a good, it should be a consumable good and not an asset.


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  #57  
Old 12-08-2015, 03:11 PM
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Re: first post, seeking advice from current owners!

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Originally Posted by billt View Post
This is the only part where I can see that you don't give yourself much choice or leeway. The fact is if you feel you won't be happy in life unless you have a new car every couple of years, then you can possibly make an argument in favor of leasing. It really doesn't mean much either way because of how much it's going to cost you regardless if you buy or lease.
This is a broad statement and is not correct. Happy in life goes beyond having a nice vehicle (or two). For me, it's a preference.


Quote:
Originally Posted by billt View Post
is not always dictated by needs. People want nice things to be happy, new cars among them. I get that part. I also get there is no way you can drive a new vehicle every few years without it costing you a small fortune. This regardless of how you do it. Again this is simple economic fact.

New vehicles depreciate at a very high rate during the term of a lease, or the first 2 or3 years of ownership. There is no way around it. The only way this can be offset is with high monthly payments. With a lease these payments will never end. You will simply move from one car to the next every few years, dropping hundreds of dollars every month for the "privilege" of doing it. With financing every couple of years, much the same will happen. If you pay cash, you'll take a bath at trade in time. It's why "New Car Replacement" on insurance policies only lasts 12 months. After that it becomes too much of a risk, simply because they are too expensive to replace after that.

The only "benefit" you will receive from all of this is the ability to drive a new or newer car that you will never own. If that doesn't bother you, and you won't be happy without it, then you don't have much of a choice but to go with it.

The problem I have with any or all of this, is the tremendous cost that multiplies over the years of doing this. Don't get me wrong, I like new cars as much as the next guy. But "trading in" every few years is burning money in order to do it. Leasing results in much the same, if not a greater loss financially. Depreciation tapers off as the car gets older, until it all but stops. The longer you drive it, the longer you spread out the loss. The cost over the same period of time is far less because you are getting far more use from the vehicle without paying constantly for it at such an exorbitant rate every month.

I have a neighbor who, along with his wife, both lease every few years. I can't count the number of new vehicles they've gone through over the 18+ years we've lived next door to each other. We're both average, middle class working guys. I've purchased one new car during that entire time, the new Jeep I just bought. If he were to add up all of the payments they've both made on all of those cars, over all of those years, he could easily have paid off his home, and then some. We are the same age. I retired at 62 almost a year ago. He's still working with both a mortgage and car payments on 2 vehicles. He asked me one day how I "pulled off" such an early retirement. I simply told him I don't buy new cars every 15 minutes.

Call me crazy, but I just cannot see spending that kind of money just for the sake of driving around in a new car. Especially living out here in Arizona where a vehicle will all but last indefinitely if it's garaged, and well taken care of. Now I'm not working any more, plus I've got more time to drive and enjoy my brand new paid for Jeep. I call it the best of both worlds.
I agree with your overall point that obtaining a new vehicle every 2-5 years, regardless of how it's financed, is not the best use of ones capital. However the same can be said about most non-essential purchases in life. What does somebody spend $100 per month on coffee at Starbucks (or similar), spending money on new clothes, vacations, hobbies, etc. I would include obtaining a new car in the same category. It simply comes down to disposable income and how you want to spend that money. For me, I prefer to drive a nice car and a different one every 2-3 years. Is it the best financial decision, no. But for me it only occupies a very small amount of my net income. Not enough to prevent other life goals.

In summary, I took exception with the statement of leasing not being a good option for financing a new vehicle. As with any major purchase, one should look at their overall financial picture and goals to decide which method is best. For me life is too short to limit myself to driving one vehicle per decade (or so). I also prefer driving a vehicle with a factory warranty and, with the premium brands, a maintenance plan. Good that we have options and can make a decision that best fits our own goals.
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  #58  
Old 12-08-2015, 05:34 PM
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Re: first post, seeking advice from current owners!

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Originally Posted by NHman View Post
This is a broad statement and is not correct. Happy in life goes beyond having a nice vehicle (or two). For me, it's a preference.
I'm just answering to what I read here. A lot of people want a new car every couple of years. It adds to their happiness in life. If it didn't, they wouldn't buy it. (Or rent it). I'm not saying it does for me, far from it. Retiring early, and having money making more money, makes me far happier than a shiny piece of tin depreciating in the garage. (Or spending $100.00 a month at Starbuck's for that matter).

I'm simply pointing out the fact it's an expensive proposition no matter how you undertake it. Because of that I do it as few times as possible.
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  #59  
Old 12-09-2015, 04:06 PM
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Re: first post, seeking advice from current owners!

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The so called "Zero Percent Financing" scam is just that. A total scam, and a complete ruse designed to attract unsuspecting buyers. You gain nothing, and in fact, it usually results in you paying more.

Car dealers, (or banks for that matter), will not lend out money for nothing. They wouldn't be in business very long if they did. Much like the old Fram oil filter commercials, you'll either pay now, or else pay later.

You will never get a vehicle for "0% Financing" at the same price you would have gotten it for cash, or by financing through a bank at competitive rates. All you'll be doing is paying for the financing up front, in the higher purchase price they'll charge you for the car.

About the only exception to this rule is on very hard to move vehicles, that have become unpopular, or never were to begin with. And as a result, the dealers want to rid themselves of costly, hard to move inventory. (Watch how fast "0% Financing" pops up everywhere at Volkswagen dealers on their once popular diesel models, since the whole EPA fiasco started). The Jeep Grand Cherokee does not fall into any of these categories.

I proved all of this to myself, (rather the dealer actually admitted it to me), when I purchased my Jeep last April. After much back and forth, I negotiated the best cash price I could get on the vehicle I wanted. Afterward I asked him about "0% Financing To Qualified Buyers", just to get his reaction. He flat out told me they did not offer it on Grand Cherokee models. And he said if they did, there was no way he could sell me the car at the agreed upon cash purchase price we had just negotiated. When I played dumb and asked him why, he told me, (rather honestly I thought), "Because we're not in the business of losing money".

"0% Financing" amounts to nothing more than fuzzy math. When all is said and done you'll wind up paying more, not less. And as we all know, automobile dealers are very good at coming up with ways to separate you from as much of your money as possible. "0% Financing" is one of the best ways yet.

Don't Fall for 0% Financing

Tips and Advice - Know the Facts: 0% Financing

The 0% Financing Scam and How to Avoid It

I dont understand your position on how 0% is a financing scam. I negotiate the price then talk about financing, if the dealer tries to start adding on fees to offset his 0% offer I walk away. Yes most people fall for the monthly payment game, but a lot of us are educated and know very well that 0% is in fact 0%.
Links you posted are things very obvious to a thinking person, I really don't care where the financing comes from (a bank, manufacture or shit hole local union), as long as its 0% then I am fine with it. Most of us do not have 50k sitting in disposable cash for a vehicle, and I am not about to save for the next 20 years for a car which I can have now at 0%.
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  #60  
Old 12-09-2015, 06:58 PM
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Re: first post, seeking advice from current owners!

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Yes most people fall for the monthly payment game, but a lot of us are educated and know very well that 0% is in fact 0%.
Sure it is. You'll just pay more to get it.
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