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  #73  
Old 02-16-2014, 01:36 PM
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Re: Holy smacks! My JGC just moved itself out of the driveway

Quote:
Originally Posted by SW03ES View Post

Why would a reasonable person not seek to remove that risk themselves?
This is a circular argument but I'll indulge anyway. Regardless of the tone taken on some of the posts here, I'm grateful to this community for sharing the other thread about the vehicles moving when in park, the WK car wash history and for a better understanding of how a pawl and the differential works.

The definition of reasonable is subjective. I think a reasonable person would expect that the pawl would hold the vehicle in "park" and not perform as the equivalent of neutral. A reasonable person could surmise the parking brake is a supplemental safety device for inclines and not the only thing that holds the vehicle in place when it is parked. And many otherwise reasonable people probably don't stop their vehicles, engage the parking brake and then put the vehicle in park. I suspect most put it in park first. Even further, some reasonable people in icy climates rarely use parking brakes because they seize up in the winter.

And this poster (reasonable or not), who almost always uses the parking brake, regardless of incline, did not expect his vehicle to roll unattended after parked for several minutes... on the same driveway it's been parked in and washed in dozens of times.

I've never sued anyone and I'm not inclined to be spoon fed. I read manuals religiously and follow directions and save every piece of paper ever given me with just about every product I buy, save for fresh produce. I do read the warning directions for cooking meat.

I do not think this is generally acceptable performance for a vehicle. I do not think most reasonable people would believe it's OK for their car or truck to be so easily capable of rolling while in the park position.

Witness these articles:

Don't Forget to Use the Parking Brake in Texas - Law Blog - WSJ

HowStuffWorks "When to Use the Emergency Brake"


My Jeep should not have done that and, if it indeed failed, the reason for my post was to determine whether the rather shocking situation was unique. I did not expect nor hope it would devolve into pointing fingers. For that, I apologize.
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  #74  
Old 02-16-2014, 02:04 PM
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Re: Holy smacks! My JGC just moved itself out of the driveway

Quote:
Originally Posted by overlanding View Post
Dang that's sweet
Yep, pretty cool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoHerd
I think a reasonable person would expect that the pawl would hold the vehicle in "park" and not perform as the equivalent of neutral. A reasonable person could surmise the parking brake is a supplemental safety device for inclines and not the only thing that holds the vehicle in place when it is parked. And many otherwise reasonable people probably don't stop their vehicles, engage the parking brake and then put the vehicle in park. I suspect most put it in park first. Even further, some reasonable people in icy climates rarely use parking brakes because they seize up in the winter.
The flaw in your argument is that the manual for your vehicle clearly and adamantly states that the vehicle should never be parked without the parking brake engaged. Regardless of what you may assume, the directive is there from your vehicle's manufacturer. There is no way around the FACT that you chose to operate your vehicle in such a way that the manufacturer went out of their way to inform you was unsafe.

Should the parking prawl have held? Its hard for any of us to say. What we CAN say though is that if you had set the parking brake properly your Jeep would not have rolled into the street. Thats really what this is about, making sure you and those around you are safe.

Here is a link to your manual:

http://www.jeep.com/deprecated/downl...oad-button.y=8

I refer you to page 445. Here are some excerpts:

Quote:
Before leaving the vehicle, make sure that the parking brake is fully applied and place the shift lever in the PARK position.
Quote:
WARNING! Never use the PARK position as a substitute for the parking brake. Always apply the parking brake fully when parked to guard against vehicle move- ment and possible injury or damage.
However you may have addressed the parking brake in the past, I hope you will take this experience as proof that you need to do as the manual for your vehicle says and use the parking brake every time you park.

Quote:
I read manuals religiously and follow directions and save every piece of paper ever given me with just about every product I buy, save for fresh produce. I do read the warning directions for cooking meat.
You obviously did not read the manual for your Jeep...or you did read it and chose to ignore what it said about the parking brake. As I've demonstrated above...all manuals say to set the parking brake every time you park...and no manufacturer refers to it as an "emergency brake" always a "parking brake"
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  #75  
Old 02-16-2014, 02:05 PM
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Re: Holy smacks! My JGC just moved itself out of the driveway

To the sticklers for parking brake use every time:

If you used your vehicle for work and were in and out of it 15 or 20 times a day, hurrying to get your work done, would you still use the parking brake every single time?

If Jeep wrote in the manual that a driver must check his dipstick prior to every start-up, would you do it? Or manually check all the tire pressures? (Remember, electronic gizmos can be inaccurate or fail, and tire pressure is a huge safety issue.)

Since you're so vehement about saving lives, can we count on you to be equally vehement in a pro-life, anti-abortion stance?

Just wondering.
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  #76  
Old 02-16-2014, 02:16 PM
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Re: Holy smacks! My JGC just moved itself out of the driveway

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Originally Posted by SW03ES View Post
However you may have addressed the parking brake in the past, I hope you will take this experience as proof that you need to do as the manual for your vehicle says and use the parking brake every time you park.



You obviously did not read the manual for your Jeep...or you did read it and chose to ignore what it said about the parking brake.

Yes, father. Thank you sir, may I have another?
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  #77  
Old 02-16-2014, 02:18 PM
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Re: Holy smacks! My JGC just moved itself out of the driveway

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoHerd View Post
I think a reasonable person would expect that the pawl would hold the vehicle in "park" and not perform as the equivalent of neutral. A reasonable person could surmise the parking brake is a supplemental safety device for inclines and not the only thing that holds the vehicle in place when it is parked.
I absolutely concur. Somehow I doubt Chrysler intended the parking brake to be the primary device that keeps the vehicle from rolling while the transmission is in park. Other manufacturers apparently have parking pawls that function as one would expect.

The vituperations being cast by some posters in this thread are perplexing. If Chrysler actually believed this was a proper design scenario, then why haven't the affected owners been getting a dismissive response... i.e. "Vehicle rolls away while automatic transmission is in Park when parking brake is not applied, as intended by design. No modifications/repairs necessary."?
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  #78  
Old 02-16-2014, 02:24 PM
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Re: Holy smacks! My JGC just moved itself out of the driveway

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadkill View Post
I absolutely concur. Somehow I doubt Chrysler intended the parking brake to be the primary device that keeps the vehicle from rolling while the transmission is in park. Other manufacturers apparently have parking pawls that function as one would expect.
Again, I refer you to page 445 in the 2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee owners manual which reads as follows:

Quote:
WARNING! Never use the PARK position as a substitute for the parking brake. Always apply the parking brake fully when parked to guard against vehicle move- ment and possible injury or damage.
It says again for emphasis:

Quote:
Always fully apply the parking brake when leav- ing your vehicle, or it may roll and cause damage or injury. Also be certain to leave the transmission in PARK. Failure to do so may allow the vehicle to roll and cause damage or injury.
Its not the primary device, it works in concert with placing the vehicle in park. Like we said, had he used it his Jeep would not have rolled into the street.

I also direct you to the quotes I posted earlier from 8 different vehicle's manuals from 5 different vehicle manufacturers ranging from model years 1995-2014 all of which specify that the parking brake should always be used when parking. Like I said, this is not a Jeep thing. We had the same fight on the Lexus forum I post in a couple years ago.

Quote:
The vituperations being cast by some posters in this thread are perplexing. If Chrysler actually believed this was a proper design scenario, then why haven't the affected owners been getting a dismissive response... i.e. "Vehicle rolls away while automatic transmission is in Park when parking brake is not applied, as intended by design. No modifications/repairs necessary."?
I'm not saying that the parking prawl should or should not have held, I have said that the simple reasonable solution is to use the parking brake as directed in the manual.

I can't speak to Chrysler's motivations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexillon
If you used your vehicle for work and were in and out of it 15 or 20 times a day, hurrying to get your work done, would you still use the parking brake every single time?
100% absolutely. I work out of my car, and before I had the GS with the automatic brake I used it all the time. I use it every time I park, I don't even think about it I've been doing it so long.

Quote:
If Jeep wrote in the manual that a driver must check his dipstick prior to every start-up, would you do it? Or manually check all the tire pressures? (Remember, electronic gizmos can be inaccurate or fail, and tire pressure is a huge safety issue.)
Thats a meaningless argument, there is no such directive, and such a directive would be asinine. This directive makes sense for the reasons put forth in this thread. Seeing that we have multiple people here who have had scenarios where cars have rolled in park without the parking brake engaged, I think the directive in the manual is pretty darn good advice.

Quote:
Since you're so vehement about saving lives, can we count on you to be equally vehement in a pro-life, anti-abortion stance?
Again, totally asinine.
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  #79  
Old 02-16-2014, 03:07 PM
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Re: Holy smacks! My JGC just moved itself out of the driveway

The mfr has a pawl that is supposed to hold the vehicle still, yet they warn owners to use the parking brake anyway.

The mfr has an air pressure readout that is supposed to show accurate tire pressures, yet if they warned owners to manually check tire pressure before each use, that would be the same kind of thing.

If manual pressure checks are "asinine" because you assume I don't need them,
then parking brake use is "asinine" because I assume I don't need it.

-----------

Saving lives from vehicle mishaps is important to you, but saving young lives from selfish moms is "asinine" to you?
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Old 02-16-2014, 03:12 PM
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Re: Holy smacks! My JGC just moved itself out of the driveway

Quote:
Originally Posted by SW03ES View Post
Again, I refer you to page 445 in the 2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee owners manual which reads as follows
You seem fond of quoting this repeatedly, as if it were salient to whether the reported scenario is a reasonable, acceptable mode of operation for the parking pawl on a JGC.

Quote:
I can't speak to Chrysler's motivations.
To reiterate, the affected owners aren't being dismissed by Chrysler. This strongly suggests that the manufacturer does not believe this is normal operation.

We get it: you believe the parking brake would solve all of these scenarios. However, advocacy for the ubiquitous use of parking brakes is orthogonal to the concern about the functionality of the parking pawl. This is like perseverating about the owner's manual's warnings to always use seat belts in a thread where an owner is reporting that the air bags failed to deploy during a high-speed collision.

I expect *two* functional, independent systems, not "one system that is expected to work, but doesn't, and another system that should be serving as a backup but is actually the only thing that is preventing a roll away."

"Hopefully" the affected owners have had isolated defects in their parking pawls rather than this being an endemic design problem.
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  #81  
Old 02-16-2014, 03:13 PM
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Re: Holy smacks! My JGC just moved itself out of the driveway

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexlion View Post
The mfr has a pawl that is supposed to hold the vehicle still, yet they warn owners to use the parking brake anyway.
Thats precisely our point. The prawl is not designed to hold the vehicle still in all situations without the use of the parking brake. You may think it is...but it isn't.

Quote:
If manual pressure checks are "asinine" because you assume I don't need them,
then parking brake use is "asinine" because I assume I don't need it.
You know what they say about those who assume...

Again, I refer you to page 445 in the manual. Your assumption is wrong.

Quote:
Saving lives from vehicle mishaps is important to you, but saving young lives from selfish moms is "asinine" to you?
We're talking about parking brakes, not debating politics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadkill
You seem fond of quoting this repeatedly, as if it were salient to whether the reported scenario is a reasonable, acceptable mode of operation for the parking pawl on a JGC.
In the reported scenario the vehicles owner was operating it in a manner that was described in the manual as being unsafe. Its pretty clear. Had he been operating the vehicle properly as outlined in the manual it wouldn't have happened.

Quote:
To reiterate, the affected owners aren't being dismissed by Chrysler. This strongly suggests that the manufacturer does not believe this is normal operation.
We have never said it is normal or isn't normal. We've just said that using the parking brake as its intended to be used removes the user from risk of this type of failure occurring.

Quote:
This is like perseverating about the owner's manual's warnings to always use seat belts in a thread where an owner is reporting that the air bags failed to deploy during a high-speed collision.
Actually, thats a good analogy. Do you know that if you aren't wearing your seat belt, the air bag may not deploy? Why you ask? Because they are designed to work together, like the parking prawl and parking brake. If you don't use one, the effectiveness of the other is greatly reduced.

Ever wonder what SRS stands for on your airbag covers? SUPPLEMENTAL Restraint System.

So actually if someone is in a high speed collision and the airbags do not deploy, if they weren't wearing their seat belt as the manual suggests...its their fault.

Quote:
I expect *two* functional, independent systems, not "one system that is expected to work, but doesn't, and another system that should be serving as a backup but is actually the only thing that is preventing a roll away."
Then you should contact the manufacturers of every vehicle produced because your expectation and reality are at odds with each other. You can expect whatever you like, but reality is what it is. I like to deal with reality.

You guys are a trip. I am thoroughly enjoying myself. Next?
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  #82  
Old 02-16-2014, 03:40 PM
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Re: Holy smacks! My JGC just moved itself out of the driveway

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Originally Posted by SW03ES View Post
I think it's great that the dealer is trying to make sure the vehicle is as safe as it can be. Their solution of installing an LSD to help the vehicle from moving in park makes zero sense and shows a lack of understanding of what an LSD is on their part... but hey an A for effort.

It doesn't change the fact that the manufacturer explicitly warns you in the manual that the vehicle should never be parked without the parking brake engaged or it could move. The smart thing to do is to use the parking brake. Read your manual.
Do you have a mental disorder? How many times are you going to say the same thing in this thread? Move on. We read what you said 5 times or more now.
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Old 02-16-2014, 03:43 PM
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Re: Holy smacks! My JGC just moved itself out of the driveway

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Originally Posted by jgc4ever View Post
Do you have a mental disorder? How many times are you going to say the same thing in this thread? Move on. We read what you said 5 times or more now.
And I've read what you've said 5 times. Why don't you move on? A conversation has more than one participant. I'm not going to reply to myself.
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  #84  
Old 02-16-2014, 03:59 PM
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Re: Holy smacks! My JGC just moved itself out of the driveway

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Originally Posted by SW03ES View Post
Personally? If I were Chrysler I'd tell them to pound sand.
...and yet that is clearly not Chrysler's reaction. Odd that you don't perceive any alternative conclusions that could be drawn about your position.

Quote:
We've just said that using the parking brake as its intended to be used removes the user from risk of this type of failure occurring.
No, it doesn't. If I can't trust a vehicle's parking pawl then why can I trust the same vehicle's parking brake? You may be satisfied when one system masks the failure of another, but I am not... especially when the parking pawl failure is not evident to the user if the parking brake is in use and operating normally. This situation devolves to waiting for the parking brake to fail and the vehicle to roll away because it wasn't evident that the pawl was defective as well.

Quote:
So actually if someone is in a high speed collision and the airbags do not deploy, if they weren't wearing their seat belt as the manual suggests...its their fault.
Gotcha, check, your "page 445" message was delivered a long time ago: your advocacy about the usage of the parking brake is orthogonal to the consideration of this vehicle's parking pawl's normal state of operation. Simply because the parking brake can usually hide the failure of the parking pawl does not make it acceptable when the pawl is defective, and it seems Chrysler shares this perspective.

Quote:
I like to deal with reality. You guys are a trip. I am thoroughly enjoying myself.
I think it's more telling that you described your previous interactions about this issue on another forum as "a fight". You seem to have a tendency toward gleeful perseveration about tangentially-related topics.
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