How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee? - Page 11 - Jeep Garage - Jeep Forum

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  #121  
Old 11-03-2015, 11:10 PM
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Re: How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee

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Originally Posted by f1anatic View Post
Sadly I am not that young and impressionable except by those who are anchored in the past and afraid of change or afraid to try for themselves. I would not say I was watching Senna when he was a rookie but I was surely watching Senna when he was winning his 2nd championship.

As for mixing politics with the sport it is sad and I agree to some extent with comments made about the state of F1. That being said, when you have a 1.6 L 4 cylinder hybrid engine achieving both high horsepower and fuel efficiency it certainly speaks about the advances in technology. The politics keep away certain manufacturers but they have relevance to consumers. Your Jeep and many road cars have technology from F1, from the multi-link suspension to the fast gear shifts in your transmission (DSG or not) to traction control.

V8 engines don't impress me unless they are modern. But overall, V8 engines represent the past. Just as the traditional desktop gave way to tablets (though there still is a role for them and I am using one right now) the V8 under the hood of the Jeep is a relic of a by-gone era. Loud. Inefficient. Obsolete. A little better than a steam engine but not leaving the same long-standing legacy.
You're so right about age being irrelevant to knowledge, and most of the engine stuff too.
Except you're wrong.

For road cars, there is really good turbo applications., But for someone wanting to run their car hard, show me a better engine than a big pushrod V8. I happen to use a LS7 GM engine. It weighs less than a OHC german V8 with almost 1/2 the displacement, and gets better mileage and has WAY more torque, sits lower in the car. No heat soak, runs cool, probably lasts longer, cheaper top end work... I just cannot get past all of that pragmatism to accept that more moving parts are better. Yes it is not a F1 hybrid that goes 200 miles before a tear down, but I think there are a lot of people talking past each other here. One says the future is turbos so we should all have them, and one says my V8 gets 18 city and pulls like satan and I love it. I for one, have under armour and cotton undies to fit my daily needs!

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  #122  
Old 11-03-2015, 11:14 PM
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Re: How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee

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Originally Posted by billt View Post
I'm averaging 18.0 MPG around town, taking it easy. For a big heavy SUV in the city that's not bad at all. Especially considering it's only got 1,300 miles on it. My 5.0 F-150 is lucky to get 13.0 MPG in the exact same driving conditions. That's 5 MPG better from a larger far more powerful V-8 engine. And there is no way I ever get into the 20-22 MPG range on the highway with that 5.0 Ford V-8. I expected far less from this new Jeep.
My MDS kicks in at 45, IIRC, so I think we are on different planets. I get less than 10mpg in town, short distance in a hilly town. But MDS is a hwy function, I think. If you speek the truth, maybe a I need an 8-speed... But I don't believe in them either..
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  #123  
Old 11-04-2015, 07:33 AM
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Re: How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee

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Originally Posted by f1anatic View Post
V8 engines don't impress me unless they are modern........
Your concept of what represents "modern" is quite laughable. In 1929 the Duesenberg J Model came with a dual overhead cam engine, equipped with 4 valve heads..... And this year the turbocharger celebrated it's 100th birthday, (Invented and patented in 1905.)
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  #124  
Old 11-04-2015, 07:41 AM
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Re: How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee

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Originally Posted by comnjeep View Post
You're so right. Except you're wrong.

For road cars, there is really good turbo applications., But for someone wanting to run their car hard, show me a better engine than a big pushrod V8. I happen to use a LS7 GM engine. It weighs less than a OHC german V8 with almost 1/2 the displacement, and gets better mileage and has WAY more torque, sits lower in the car.
Look, it is a mathematical certainty that I would get it wrong every now and then.

Quote:
How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee
This, quoted above, is the title/question of this thread. BASE ENGINE.

Yes, I hail the virtues of turbo engines and you and others disagree with it, sometimes vehemently. And yes we ended up talking F1 because they run modern turbo engines. And no, they do not get re-manufactured every 200 miles. Quite a lot of parts have to be the same otherwise the team incurs meaningless grid penalties of 60 spots per race.

But back to our story, we are talking a base engine. You didn't buy the base Pentastar engine, you exercised an option. I happen to disagree that this particular V8 should even be an option, because I feel it is obsolete. Others too, think turbos are the breath of evil and will need a USB flash drive to boot them when they fail often. Some weeks ago I compared the Pentastar to existing 2L turbo engines that produce the same or even more torque and similar horsepower. It would be a suitable base engine option: smaller, more efficient (with a variable geometry turbo, DI, etc) but just as powerful version as the current engine offering. It doesn't mean I would choose it either if given a sensible option.

Quote:
I happen to use a LS7 GM engine. It weighs less than a OHC german V8 with almost 1/2 the displacement, and gets better mileage and has WAY more torque, sits lower in the car.
I am not sure which German engine you are referring to but if you refer to 1/2 displacement, the 4.4 L DOHC V8 S63 engine on the BMW M5 has higher hp and lb-ft numbers than the 7.0 L V8 "small" block in the Z06. Straight numbers are not the whole story but at least it is almost an Ecoboost engine less in displacement.
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  #125  
Old 11-04-2015, 07:43 AM
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Re: How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee

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Originally Posted by billt View Post
Your concept of what represents "modern" is quite laughable. In 1929 the Duesenberg J Model came with a dual overhead cam engine, equipped with 4 valve heads..... And this year the turbocharger celebrated it's 100th birthday, (Invented and patented in 1905.)
And remind us when they started using DOHC configurations and 4 valves per cylinder in engines?
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  #126  
Old 11-04-2015, 07:45 AM
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Re: How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee

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Originally Posted by comnjeep View Post
My MDS kicks in at 45, IIRC, so I think we are on different planets. I get less than 10mpg in town, short distance in a hilly town. But MDS is a hwy function, I think. If you speek the truth, maybe a I need an 8-speed... But I don't believe in them either..
The MDS System can kick in at any time when the vehicle is in motion, and the throttle is closed, or reduced. It's use is not governed by the speed of the vehicle. The only time it is actually "off", is when the engine is cold, and not up to operating temperature. And if you're not running the ZF 8-Speed, that is a big part of the reason your fuel economy is off.
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  #127  
Old 11-04-2015, 07:46 AM
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Re: How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee

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Originally Posted by f1anatic View Post
And remind us when they started using DOHC configurations and 4 valves per cylinder in engines?
I just did. Read the post. (1929 if you need to be reminded).
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  #128  
Old 11-04-2015, 07:50 AM
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Re: How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee

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Originally Posted by billt View Post
The MDS System can kick in at any time when the vehicle is in motion, and the throttle is closed, or reduced. It's use is not governed by the speed of the vehicle. The only time it is actually "off", is when the engine is cold, and not up to operating temperature. And if you're not running the ZF 8-Speed, that is a big part of the reason your fuel economy is off.
Doesn't this statement actually back up the assertion (by others, not me, see above) that MDS is a gimmick? You just attributed "a big part" of the fuel economy to the 8 speed.
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  #129  
Old 11-04-2015, 07:55 AM
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Re: How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee

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Originally Posted by billt View Post
I just did. Read the post. (1929 if you need to be reminded).
Great. It wasn't for me though.

Now tell us about the number cams and valves in your Jeep's engine and the year when the current gen 5.7 V8 entered production incorporating MDS. That is when they could have modernized the engine. Or rather bring it in line with the emerging technologies of the Great Depression.
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  #130  
Old 11-04-2015, 08:03 AM
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Re: How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee

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Originally Posted by f1anatic View Post
Doesn't this statement actually back up the assertion (by others, not me, see above) that MDS is a gimmick? You just attributed "a big part" of the fuel economy to the 8 speed.
Not in the least. The MDS isn't going to work at all if you constantly drive "with your foot in it" all the time. Or are using the vehicle on short trips when the engine barely has time to reach operating temperature, to where the MDS will even function at all. This regardless of what transmission you have in the vehicle. Most people buy a HEMI for power and towing. If, or when you utilize both, you're not going to see anything from the MDS System.
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  #131  
Old 11-04-2015, 08:08 AM
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Re: How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee

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Originally Posted by f1anatic View Post
Great. It wasn't for me though.
Now your backpedalling. Too late though. You've already stepped in it. Your concept of what is "modern", and what is not, is silly to say the least, as I've proven. Both have been around for 86, and 100 years. Anything but "modern". You need more, look it up. I did.
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  #132  
Old 11-04-2015, 08:31 AM
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Re: How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee

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Originally Posted by billt View Post
Now your backpedalling. Too late though. You've already stepped in it. Your concept of what is "modern", and what is not, is silly to say the least, as I've proven. Both have been around for 86, and 100 years. Anything but "modern". You need more, look it up. I did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by f1anatic View Post
Great. It wasn't for me though.

Now tell us about the number cams and valves in your Jeep's engine and the year when the current gen 5.7 V8 entered production incorporating MDS. That is when they could have modernized the engine. Or rather bring it in line with the emerging technologies of the Great Depression.
Can't be too subtle on this forum, can you? Well I am cool with admitting that my understanding of "modern" dates to 1929. So does that make the V8 Jeep engine ... pre-modern? post-archaic ? antemodern? antediluvian?

Then I like "pre-modern" to best describe OHV engines with 2 valves per cylinder which rely on increasing displacement as a method of making horsepower and staying relevant in the "post-modern" consumer markets.
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