How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee? - Page 15 - Jeep Garage - Jeep Forum

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  #169  
Old 12-21-2015, 08:47 AM
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Re: How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee

Quote:
Originally Posted by rszwestko View Post
I was talking about cost of the whole package not the engine.
Look, you can talk in support of these things all you want. It doesn't change the reality of what is and isn't. Consumer Reports is regarded as one of the most respected testing agencies out there. You see the performance and mileage numbers they generated in their tests, over a multitude of different vehicles and engine combinations. They're not making this stuff up.

Reliability is directly supported by warranties. The less reliable and more costly an engine is to maintain over time, the shorter and more expensive the warranty will be. NOT ONE turbocharged engine out there being currently produced, including those manufactured by Mercedes and BMW, are available with unlimited time and mileage warranties, like normally aspirated engines are. There is a very good reason for that. If they were as or more reliable, the warranties they have would support that. They don't. They break down more. And when they do they are extremely costly to repair.

All of this is well established fact. You can ignore it if you choose. But it doesn't change the reality of owning and operating these engines over long periods of time. It's an economic gamble few people are willing to take, who purchase vehicles they plan on keeping over the long haul. It really is just that simple. As always YMMV. (Although not by much if you have a turbo).

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  #170  
Old 12-21-2015, 08:53 AM
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Re: How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee

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Originally Posted by billt View Post
Look, you can talk in support of these things all you want. It doesn't change the reality of what is and isn't. Consumer Reports is regarded as one of the most respected testing agencies out there. You see the performance and mileage numbers they generated in their tests, over a multitude of different vehicles and engine combinations. They're not making this stuff up.

Reliability is directly supported by warranties. The less reliable and more costly an engine is to maintain over time, the shorter and more expensive the warranty will be. NOT ONE turbocharged engine out there being currently produced, including those manufactured by Mercedes and BMW, are available with unlimited time and mileage warranties, like their normally aspirated engines are. There is a very good reason for that. If they were as or more reliable, the warranties they have would support that. They don't. They break down more. And when they do they are extremely costly to repair.

All of this is well established fact. You can ignore it if you choose. But it doesn't change the reality of owning and operating these engines over long periods of time. It's an economic gamble few people are willing to take, who purchase vehicles they plan on keeping over the long haul. It really is just that simple. As always YMMV. (Although not by much if you have a turbo).
Fact Fact Fact all I hear is Fact, if you think consumer reports is respected and most reliable source of information then you are probably the same guy that watches Fox five 24/7. Anyway, show me manufactures that offer lifetime warranties besides Jeep, no one keeps their cars for longer than 6-7 years because its not worth it other costly components go wrong besides the engine, its a FACT. You can choose to believe in what you say but the FACT is you are wrong.
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  #171  
Old 12-21-2015, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f1anatic View Post

I wish I could say "Are you serious?" but reality is that you are serious. You are also quoting convenient, misleading truths.

Yes length of ownership of a vehicle has extended over the years. No doubt about it and I am one of those people. Next month my turbocharged Subaru will be 11. We can find any number of statistics to show that. One was quoted above, KBB also mentions it here.

But the manufacturers still have 30 K, 60 K and 100 K maintenance intervals. Most people will still ditch their cars around the 100 k miles mark because of the sudden costs of expensive timing belts, coolant flushes, brakes, tires, struts, bushings, the worn-out upholstery, the road rash, creaking noises and dings and the annoying electric glitches that require expensive modules to replace.

It is ludicrous to suggest that the average American family with 1.9 kids, 1.4 petss, a mortgage and 39.5 mile commute will push their big block V8 car till it reaches 300,000 on the odometer. Or even 200,000. Most will ditch the vehicle when it goes out of warranty at around the 100,000 mile mark or when the first major component that fails.

Your convenient truth this time is that while the classic V8 engine might be simpler, easier to repair and maintain than a turbo, it will not result in a far longer ownership in consumer applications. We are not talking industrial (commercial) applications. It may result in a longer initial ownership perhaps, but not in a second coming. A taxi fleet manager might be having sweaty hands bidding for those used and abused police cars (Crown Vics) or the used Avis/Budget rental fleet, as will your compassionate street corner drug dealer. There is no second coming of the high mileage V8 powered mainstream car or SUV, to be purchased by someone intent on keeping it a long time. The engine might still be up for it, but not the overall package.

I got educated on this matter on November 4th, in this very thread so I learned my lesson. Turbochargers are a novelty from 110 years ago.

What about the convenient truth above:

The upside is that all diesel JGC owners are fools who mistakenly chose the measly 245 hp engine over the V8 because they wrongly thought torque, rather than horsepower, is more important in an SUV. Or are they? I will answer my own question and hereby I state that I do not consistently drive my gasoline-powered Jeep between 5200 rpm and 6500 rpm red line where horsepower is more important than torque.

As far as small turbo engines not delivering the stated EPA fuel economy, this is the first time we ever heard such craziness. Fortunately even Consumer Reports acknowledges that Consumer Reports finds small turbo engines don't deliver on fuel economy claims

With emphasis on the bold part, Chevrolet Cruze, Dodge Dart, BMW X3 and the Ford F-150 are the only ones worthy of comparison. Where it did not deliver better fuel economy, it delivered better acceleration. And probably better handling due to less weight over the front axle. And probably polluted less (CO, CO2, NOx, SOx) over the same driven distance.
You sure about people owning v8's for that short of a time frame aren't ya?

My dad has a 1992 gmc yukon (first year) with a 350 in it. Has 210k on it. Never been rebuilt, and still going strong. I also know plenty of other people with older v8's still on the road. Therefore your argument that people likley won't own them past 200k or even 100k is retarded.

Go take a look on the "how many miles" threads on there and count how many people have a v8 over 150k and still enjoy the things
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  #172  
Old 12-21-2015, 09:03 AM
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Re: How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee

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Originally Posted by rszwestko View Post
.............no one keeps their cars for longer than 6-7 years because its not worth it...........

http://business.time.com/2012/07/27/...uple-of-years/

"78% of drivers say that they plan on keeping their cars for 10 or more years after purchase."

"The average car on the road is 11 years old. The highest figure EVER recorded."
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  #173  
Old 12-21-2015, 09:06 AM
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Re: How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee

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Originally Posted by billt View Post
you forgot to add "other costly components go wrong besides the engine"
don't just copy/paste whats convenient for you. Its a Fact.
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  #174  
Old 12-21-2015, 09:14 AM
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Re: How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee

I'm in the middle of raising a family so I might be in a different position than some of you. We keep our family haulers as I call them well past 100k miles. Most of them have been retired close to 200k in fact. Our current 2003 Chevy Express AWD is going strong with 130k on it. It has needed nothing other than tires, brakes, one tie rod and belt. I've been good about changing the oil, but it may be running the original anti freeze yet. The thing is our family haulers have always been good old reliable v8's. None have led pampered lives yet have been stone reliable. The Eco boost may give the greenies a better feeling and the EPA can pat itself on the back for reaching its mandate, but where are they when it comes time to fix these technological marvels? I'm the one stuck paying the bill. I'm guessing that for the cost of replacing a twin turbo setup I can replace my entire long block and be ready for another 300k.

Now if only they'd stop salting the damn roads here the bodies might last more than ten years.


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  #175  
Old 12-21-2015, 09:32 AM
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Re: How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee

A 2.0 TT in a Jeep... not a fan. Drove the Ecoboost in the Ford Escape and I was not impressed.
I have a 2013 F150 with the 3.5L Ecoboost and I love it. My one complaint is that Ford sized the turbos so that you have no lag. Which is good and bad. Good because you have no lag, bad because your in boost most of the time killing any kind of respectable MPG. Yeah, I bought the wrong vehicle if I'm chasing MPG, I know.
I wish they would have size the turbos a bit larger to give more HP/TQ when you want it and make it easier to stay out of boost when your just putting around.
But i'm kind of a seat of the pants junkie and only a TT Hemi would satisfy me, for a little while anyway.
Now I just need to find a money tree to do something like this.
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  #176  
Old 12-21-2015, 03:00 PM
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Re: How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strongjeff View Post
You sure about people owning v8's for that short of a time frame aren't ya?

My dad has a 1992 gmc yukon (first year) with a 350 in it. Has 210k on it. Never been rebuilt, and still going strong. I also know plenty of other people with older v8's still on the road. Therefore your argument that people likley won't own them past 200k or even 100k is retarded.

Go take a look on the "how many miles" threads on there and count how many people have a v8 over 150k and still enjoy the things
Thank you for your P O L I T E insult.

Just because your dad has one and my best friend has one and the 5000 members of some Internet forum all have one, they are not representative of the overall population. No car forum members are representative of the general population. For starters, they like cars and they become passionate about them. They tend to take care of their cars better and they tend to own them for longer period of time. But the average car owner out there will forget or otherwise de-prioritize regular or preventive maintenance of their vehicles.

All those folks with high mileage vehicles who just enjoy the things will also tell you that they upkept, maintained and repaired their cars at frequencies higher than what the manufacturer called for, and whatever parts were replaced when they broke, were either factory new or better aftermarket ones.
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  #177  
Old 12-21-2015, 03:13 PM
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Re: How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee

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Originally Posted by billt View Post
I've been hearing that for the last 25 years. It's no more of a fact now than it was then.
SOME of it is to meet newer CAFE standards coming from various countries.
I must admit today's turbo engines seem to outlast those from prior generations and are almost driveable from some vendors, and some even have small/large turbo combinations to help deal with spool up time. Dunno any that use the old Porsche turbo trick of popping open a valve to drop the pressure on the downstream side of the turbo--probably too many little old ladies had heart attaches from the noise.

Direct injection? Check out the requirements for particulate filters on gas direct injection coming soon--seems DI creates more particulates than port injection because the fuel burns less completely.
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  #178  
Old 12-21-2015, 03:19 PM
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Re: How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee

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Originally Posted by f1anatic View Post
Thank you for your P O L I T E insult. Just because your dad has one and my best friend has one and the 5000 members of some Internet forum all have one, they are not representative of the overall population.
The exact same thing can be said about all of you young turbo lovers, who have your ego's so heavily invested in your engines. We simply like to purchase what works, and has proven to be boringly reliable, and last's.
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  #179  
Old 12-21-2015, 03:27 PM
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Re: How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee

This forum is split into turbo lovers and V8 lovers which is fine we can argue and debate all day long, the truth is majority of car buyers could care less if their car is powered by a gang of hamsters or a nuclear reactor, as long as it fits their budget and it has WIFI build in it should be fine. Which reminds me of the debate about iPhone 6S, both models have 2 different chipsets, most people don't care but very few argue forever on which one is better than the other.
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  #180  
Old 12-21-2015, 11:28 PM
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Re: How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee

If the Grand Cherokee is built on the Cherokee platform then a 2.0 TT will still be slow. A 3.0 V6 with direct injection and twin turbos then sr. The issue is not HP, all you need is lotsa revs but for trailer towing torque "there ain't no replacement for displacement".

Hemis are ded. Sorry Charlie but to be competitive this millenia you need a 4-valve center plug DOHC head with 10:1+ CR and the next Hemi that can do that will be the first.

To be really competitive takes direct injection (to control detonation) and boost designed for 87 PON. Just for one issue consider the necessary valve angles for a 4 valve Hemi. Cams don't bend well.

The other factor is to get max MPG you have to keep the revs low without going into "Performance Enrichment". Takes a whole bunch of math plus deep understanding of both Obert and Sir Harry but for a modern gas engine you want a stroke of 3.20-3.40", bore of .25" more than the stroke and gears for 2k rpm at 70 mph.

This means a 4 between 2.0 and 2.4 liters and a 6 of 3.0-3.5 liters. For towing a trailer I'd prefer a 6. Boosted you'll get about 125 hp/liter @ 6500 rpm which sounds great but on the other end figure about 70 lb-ft/liter from 1700 to 5000 rpm with VVT i&e. To tow a 5,000 lb trailer we are back at a healty 6.

YMMV so treat this more as guidelines but is a good place to start.

ps, yes you can make a 2.7 liter 4 or 6 work, just not that well in a modern engine.
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