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  #85  
Old 10-15-2015, 01:05 PM
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Re: How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee

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Originally Posted by cloudlx View Post
Agreed.

I loved my EcoBoost trucks. Best trucks I have ever owned. Really, the only thing I disliked is when I stood on the loud pedal it sounded like a V6. Nothing you can do about that really. That's part of the reason I waited for the right deal on a Hemi. No problem with a V6 but it better have some snails attached to it!

If Jeep came out with a motor like the 3.5l EcoBoost I would gladly give it my consideration.
For the number of people on this site that are always looking to improve their vehicle's performance, I'm surprised at the number of turbo haters. Anything with a turbo and direct injection can easily be tuned for more power.

People have Ecoboost Explorers, Flex's and F150s running 13's. What's not to like there?

And thanks for the single forum post about a troubled EB engine. Guess you didn't actually read the whole thread where the guy said Ford already had a TSB out for that specific problem. And when the dealerships wouldn't help, a CS rep on the forum helped him out. Sounds like they have their shit together.

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  #86  
Old 10-15-2015, 03:38 PM
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Re: How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee

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Originally Posted by dcorn View Post
For the number of people on this site that are always looking to improve their vehicle's performance, I'm surprised at the number of turbo haters.
It's not a question of "hating" turbos. It's a performance vs. cost / complexity / reliability issue. Turbos do what they're designed to do well. They are also expensive to repair and or replace. And not just anyone can work on them in a pinch if need be. What turbo "lovers" have to remember, is the only way a turbo cannot fail, is if the engine in question doesn't have one.

Normally aspirated, MDS V-8, computer controlled engines have really done a good job at reducing the need for turbos. They work well while being extremely reliable and cost effective. They are also very economical to operate from a fuel standpoint. The 5.7 HEMI V-8 for example, gets just a couple of MPG less than it's 6 cylinder counterpart. But when you need the extra torque and power, it's there.... Just like a turbo, but without all the complexity and expense.

This is especially appealing to people like myself who keep their vehicles a long time, (over 10+ years). If you lease, or are trading in every few years it doesn't matter. Many don't. And for them being "turboless" is a greater asset, than it is a liability. I compare todays turbos to the 2- Stroke outboards of a decade ago. 4- Stroke outboard technology and performance has become so well developed, there really is no more need for them.
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  #87  
Old 10-19-2015, 07:33 AM
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Re: How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee

I had a 2.0L TT in my bmw, plenty of power no turbo lag and crazy good mpg's!
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  #88  
Old 10-19-2015, 09:10 AM
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Re: How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee

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Originally Posted by LSU_FAN View Post
I had a 2.0L TT in my bmw, plenty of power no turbo lag and crazy good mpg's!
Yeah. But in a CAR that probably weighs about 1/3 what our WK2s do.
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  #89  
Old 10-22-2015, 09:11 PM
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Re: How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee

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Originally Posted by f1anatic View Post
Let's keep it even simpler:

Subaru WRX: 268 HP @ 5600 rpm and 258 lb-ft @ 5200 rpm from 2 L H4
Subaru STI : 305 HP @ 6000 rpm; 290 lb-ft @ 4000 rpm; 2.5 L H4
Audi A4: 220 HP @ 4450 rpm; 258 lb-ft @ 1500 rpm; 2L I-4
Audi S3 / VW Golf R: 292 HP @ 5400 rpm; 280 lb-ft @ 1900 rpm; 2L I-4
Mitsubishi EVO X: 290 HP @ 6500 rpm; 300 lb-ft @ 4000 rpm; 2L I-4
BMW: 240 HP @ 5000 rpm; 255 lb-ft @ 1250 rpm; 2 L I-4
Cadillac: 272 HP @ @ 5500 rpm
Mercedes CLA AMG: 355 HP; 332 lb-ft; 2L I-4


Pentastar 3.6 L V6 290 HP @ 6400 rpm; 260 lb-ft @ 4800 rpm

Hmmm...almost every turbo car out there outperforms the Pentastar...
ok i will bite off a chunk of this.....I have been in the auto parts industry for 26 years and if they put a turbo on a jgc I would not touch it with a ten foot pole. especially if they are stupid enough to put an audi or vw supplied turbo. high dollar to replace at my cost, let alone retail/end user. they are a sell my car repair item(not a maintenance item). they better cover it with their fix everything but brakes, wipers and glass warranty. I know they trying to find ways to improve mpg but I believe this is the wrong direction to achieve this. yes you may get more HP and torque but at the expense of lost customers when they break, is it worth it? not in my not so humble opinion. I always look at cost of repair because I deal with it every day. I also hold onto cars longer than others and cost of repair/maintenance can seriously lower the "value" a car represents. I also know that this will probably have someone hating at me but turbos are repair and maintenance nightmares.
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  #90  
Old 10-22-2015, 10:32 PM
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Re: How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee

I had a 2004 wrx as my only turbo ever. The up-pipes were a risk for sending metal into the turbo and grenading them. the UOA I did prompted me to trade mine in (for my hemi JGC). I liked that car a lot for many reasons, power being one. But the lag sucked, and if I had to get another subaru, I'd probably get a NA manual one (or possibly a STi).. The big selling point people make these days is the MPG's for turbos, but I can tell you from experience, if the turbo is making positive manifold pressure, you ain't saving gas. So drive a turbo anywhere near spirited, and it will waste gas like a big block. There's no free lunch. Power comes from burning gas, people! I know two poeple who have had the f150 "eco"boost and both said the mpg's were not as advertised (20 hwy real world). Now if you want power, they're great, and power to wt can be great too, but let me just say I've gone the other way: 328xi (straight 6 NA), c6Z06 (7L NA V8) and JGC hemi (and old tahoe v8 and YJ str 6! that will not die). I would trade none of these for any version of a similar car with a blower or turbo thank you very much. I will take a new Ford GT if you're offering though... I'm not stupid... I'd pass on a 4cyl turbo in anything but a rally car.
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  #91  
Old 10-22-2015, 10:36 PM
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Re: How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee

Quote:
Originally Posted by billt View Post
Turbos basically take a small displacement engine and make it work harder, in order to put out the power level of a larger displacement, normally aspirated engine. The trade off is more expense and complexity, with much more heat and wear generated in the process. Along with a higher, more expensive repair rate, and a shorter engine life. (The repair / service history of these engines over the years proves this). They usually require a higher octane, more expensive fuel to accomplish this higher power output. Which somewhat negates the economics of them in the first place. (You can purchase a hell of a lot of gasoline for what it costs to replace a pair of turbo's).

The supposed gain is a bit better overall MPG, with the power being "on tap" for only when you require it..... Just like a 5.7 HEMI running only on 4 with the MDS System. The difference is the MDS generates less heat when it's operating, not more like the turbo. With today's modern engine development and technology going into street vehicles, I think turbo's have somewhat outlived their time.

Years back, before MDS they had a place. Today, the current MDS Systems that have proven to work quite reliably, are a far better avenue for today's modern engine development to proceed down. Instead of chasing outdated, more expensive technology that just adds a lot of cost and complexity, without much reward. Especially over the long haul.
I agree with your conclusions except turbos are not going away, they are indeed getting better... And MDS is a joke and marketing tool. In my hands it makes zero difference in mpg. Which makes sense because modern engine management can all but shut off fuel when not needed to ALL cylanders and does so (this is not personal knowledge, but regurgitated info, so correct me if I'm wrong please, but it does explain to me why MDS doesn't do snit).
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  #92  
Old 10-23-2015, 07:01 AM
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Re: How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee

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Originally Posted by comnjeep View Post
..........In my hands it makes zero difference in mpg........... so correct me if I'm wrong please, but it does explain to me why MDS doesn't do snit).
How would you know that, unless you had a completely identical engine without MDS, in an identical vehicle to compare it to? With all due respect, saying, "it doesn't do $h!t" in your hands, isn't really saying much as far as judging it's performance.
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  #93  
Old 10-23-2015, 07:35 AM
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Re: How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee

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Originally Posted by rldc2000 View Post
ok i will bite off a chunk of this.....I have been in the auto parts industry for 26 years and if they put a turbo on a jgc I would not touch it with a ten foot pole. especially if they are stupid enough to put an audi or vw supplied turbo. high dollar to replace at my cost, let alone retail/end user. they are a sell my car repair item(not a maintenance item). they better cover it with their fix everything but brakes, wipers and glass warranty. I know they trying to find ways to improve mpg but I believe this is the wrong direction to achieve this. yes you may get more HP and torque but at the expense of lost customers when they break, is it worth it? not in my not so humble opinion. I always look at cost of repair because I deal with it every day. I also hold onto cars longer than others and cost of repair/maintenance can seriously lower the "value" a car represents. I also know that this will probably have someone hating at me but turbos are repair and maintenance nightmares.
The only way someone would "hate" at you for your comments here is due to the one sided line of thinking applied to it. Yes, turbos are expensive to replace. So is an engine, a transmission, a head unit is 1600.00 to replace for chrissakes. Nothing is cheap these days man. And also the biggest reason not to fear a turbo vehicle is the warranty any given customer has the option to buy. Got an SRT8/SRT? Get a massive warranty because EVERYthing on those vehicles costs a mint to fix. Same would go for a Turbo or supercharged car. Nix the turbo for a hemi. You're in the same boat. All perspective. All relative.
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Old 10-23-2015, 08:39 AM
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Re: How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee

Something the, "It's why you have a warranty!" guys must remember in regards to repair costs and warranties with turbo's. Regardless of who manufacturers them, the "Unlimited Lifetime Warranties" that are available for normally aspirated V-8's, are not available with most turbo's. Check into it. I have. Most have a time, and or mileage limit, and do not offer unlimited time and mileage coverage.

For long term buyers like myself, this is a deal breaker. Most of the small 4 cylinder turbo's currently available from Mercedes, BMW, and Audi cannot be purchased with, "Unlimited Mileage Lifetime Warranties". The "Lifetime" is usually only 6 years or less. There is a reason for that. Even the Jeep Grand Cherokee with the turbo Eco Diesel cannot be purchased with a unlimited lifetime warranty. It's simply not available. And the warranties that are available, are usually substantially more expensive. Again, there is a reason for that. They are more prone to failure, and are a hell of a lot more expensive to repair / replace when they do.

If you lease, or are a relatively short term owner. (Meaning you dump it before the warranty runs out), chances are you'll be OK. But even then the dealer is going to hit you with a reduced trade in value, because the next buyer isn't going to jump for joy at the prospect of buying a timed out turbo vehicle. Common sense also dictates most turbo's have been run hard and put away wet. Young, enthusiastic turbo buyers drive them hard. It's much of the reason why they buy them. Add all of this up, and turbo's lose much of their allure.
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Old 10-23-2015, 09:16 AM
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Re: How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee

Didnt I just say that? You want performance vehicle chances are the warranties are more costly.
And man, turbos are far more reliable than you are implying. Ive owned several high mileage turbo vehicles including a T-type that i beat the snot out of on a daily basis. Guy i sold it to is still driving it on the same turbo
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  #96  
Old 10-23-2015, 09:42 AM
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Re: How do you feel about a 2.0L TT as the base engine for the 2019 WL Grand Cherokee

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Originally Posted by Keysplayr View Post
And man, turbos are far more reliable than you are implying.
If they were you would have the same warranties available for the same time and cost as you do for normally aspirated V-8 engines. You don't, plain and simple. You would have if the cost to repair / reliability / longevity factor was the same. It's not.

Warranties are no different than health or home insurance policies. The greater the risk, the more the cost. And if the risk is too great, they flat out won't cover you. I'm not "implying" turbo vehicles are not reliable. The warranties imply they are not as reliable from a cost of coverage standpoint, as well as how long they'll cover them for.

We don't purchase new vehicles very often. And I'll say this flat out. If I could have obtained the exact same Unlimited Mileage Lifetime Warranty for a Jeep Grand Cherokee 3.0 Eco Diesel as I did for my 5.7 HEMI, I would be driving one now.

Before we considered an SUV, we also looked at a Mercedes 300 Class, and a BMW 325i. But walked away for the same reason. They won't warranty them long enough. For me, only 6 or 7 years of warranty protection on a $50K+ investment, is no where near a risk I want to take on a vehicle I intend to keep for well beyond that point. The economics associated with the risk factor are simply not there.
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