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  #61  
Old 07-21-2012, 06:02 PM
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Re: Jeep Grand Cherokee Moose Test -- Full Story

I agree Zac...not even close to rolling over
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  #62  
Old 07-21-2012, 06:25 PM
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Re: Jeep Grand Cherokee Moose Test -- Full Story

Quote:
Originally Posted by ENFORCER View Post
Guys you need to understand the testing parameters that the tester used.
They went off the JEEP maximum weight loads and tyre pressures, they did not make up their own figures, there were OFFICIAL figures that Jeep supplied to approve the Jeep in the EU.

Apparently it was revealed after, that Jeep under quoted the weight by 158kg. This means that the test was done according to the specs given by Jeep, but in reality it was overweight by 158kg. This is why Jeep took out weight for the 2nd test, where the tyres just blew out.

As for the ESP, it is a serious worry the way the car acts in this test. ESP does not require the driver to activate the brakes, for the ESP to brake the wheels. This is the big advantage of ESP over ABS. ESP is designed to keep the car pointing in the direction the drive needs it to, regardless of the conditions. This allows a driver to steer around a potential crash, rather than just skid into it. The system also has rollover mitigation that is designed to stop the car from getting into a potential rollover profile.

This test reveals that the ESP cannot cope with the conditions that it has been presented with. If you search "Moose Test" on Youtube, you will find several examples of cars that have failed this test. Ironically most do not have ESP fitted. The JGC behaves very much like a car without ESP. It is possible that the extra weight overwhelms the ESP and it just does not react.

There is no point in criticising the test or trying to discredit the scenrio, the fact remains that this test has shown a serious safety issue with this car in a plausable test at a relitave low speed.

This is totally unacceptable for a 2011+ vehicle with all the safety stars and features that has been claimed by Jeep. Regardless of the weight, tyres fitted, testing scenario or any other excused, it is UNACCEPTABLE.

You can either accept the results and demand Jeep address this, or you can keep living in denial and just live back in your alternat reality.

Jeep need to put out either an official statement and what they plan to do to fix it, or provide some proof that there were serious flaws in the test and show us why we should believe them.
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  #63  
Old 07-21-2012, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ENFORCER View Post
This is the big advantage of ESP over ABS.
Sorry, but there is no "advantage" between ESP and ABS. Two different systems.




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  #64  
Old 07-21-2012, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ENFORCER View Post
Guys you need to understand the testing parameters that the tester used.
They went off the JEEP maximum weight loads and tyre pressures, they did not make up their own figures, there were OFFICIAL figures that Jeep supplied to approve the Jeep in the EU.

Apparently it was revealed after, that Jeep under quoted the weight by 158kg. This means that the test was done according to the specs given by Jeep, but in reality it was overweight by 158kg. This is why Jeep took out weight for the 2nd test, where the tyres just blew out.

As for the ESP, it is a serious worry the way the car acts in this test. ESP does not require the driver to activate the brakes, for the ESP to brake the wheels. This is the big advantage of ESP over ABS. ESP is designed to keep the car pointing in the direction the drive needs it to, regardless of the conditions. This allows a driver to steer around a potential crash, rather than just skid into it. The system also has rollover mitigation that is designed to stop the car from getting into a potential rollover profile.

This test reveals that the ESP cannot cope with the conditions that it has been presented with. If you search "Moose Test" on Youtube, you will find several examples of cars that have failed this test. Ironically most do not have ESP fitted. The JGC behaves very much like a car without ESP. It is possible that the extra weight overwhelms the ESP and it just does not react.

There is no point in criticising the test or trying to discredit the scenrio, the fact remains that this test has shown a serious safety issue with this car in a plausable test at a relitave low speed.

This is totally unacceptable for a 2011+ vehicle with all the safety stars and features that has been claimed by Jeep. Regardless of the weight, tyres fitted, testing scenario or any other excused, it is UNACCEPTABLE.

You can either accept the results and demand Jeep address this, or you can keep living in denial and just live back in your alternat reality.

Jeep need to put out either an official statement and what they plan to do to fix it, or provide some proof that there were serious flaws in the test and show us why we should believe them.
Hi Enforcer, well written and don't disagree. You have educated me a little more on the ESP aspect of this situation. Thanks.
Maybe the Swedes need to rename their test. For me 'Moose Test' has conotations of a Rocky and Bullwinkle cartoon.
Agree the situation not quite right, and confident that Jeep will fix this...........eventually.................at some stage..............I'm sure..........as they did eventuality with the missing tow hooks.
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  #65  
Old 07-21-2012, 07:03 PM
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Re: Jeep Grand Cherokee Moose Test -- Full Story

"They went off the JEEP maximum weight loads and tyre pressures, they did not make up their own figures, there were OFFICIAL figures that Jeep supplied to approve the Jeep in the EU."

Might have found the EU specs. Looks like all sold in Europe (except the SRT) have the 3.0 diesel and
Gross vehicle weight 2949 kg (6488 lbs) Tyre size - front 265/50 R20 Tyre size - rear 265/50 R20
- can anyone verify ?


Even at 158 kg less that is still 6140 lbs and from the video every bit was on the drivers side front tire (max load 2149 lbs at 36 psi). Glad mine is near two thousand pounds lighter and my 17s are two full load ranges higher (109 vs 107). Guess we'll have to fill the back with paving blocks to test properly.
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  #66  
Old 07-21-2012, 08:05 PM
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Re: Jeep Grand Cherokee Moose Test -- Full Story

I do not know why the Moose seems to be the biggest reason people think it does not apply to their situation.
For the people who think it does not affect them, then call it a: Child running on the road test, Semi pulling out from a side street, rock falling onto the road from a cliff above test, anything that will kill you if you hit it test.

As for the car not being close to rolling. Firstly, if the driver had not made the correction, it would have rolled, it was very close to its tipping point. Second any car that goes onto 2 wheels that easily, is not a good thing. This is a fundamental design flaw and would be a F A I L in any road safety test.

As for the Advantage of ESP over ABS, you must not understand the difference between both systems. ABS is designed to stop the wheels from locking up under heavy braking and allow you to maintain some form of steerage. This is done by pulsing the brakes and allowing some rotation of the wheels, rather than just a straight lockup. The ABS system only works under the application of the brake.

ESP is a step above ABS and while using similar technologies, they allow the individual braking of wheels, without the driver having to apply the brakes. This can allow for more control when doing evasive manoeuvres and reduce the chances of an uncontrolled skid. ESP will kick in if it thinks the car is going into a skid by using Yaw sensors.

This is what we are not seeing on the video. The car appears to not behave as a car with ESP. As for being 2 different system, this is incorrect. ESP needs the ABS system, they are complimentary. You cannot have ESP without ABS, but you can have ABS without ESP.
I feel the main problem with the Jeep is the maximum weight. At the end of the day you cannot overcome the laws of physics, no matter how good a safety system is.
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  #67  
Old 07-21-2012, 08:12 PM
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Re: Jeep Grand Cherokee Moose Test -- Full Story

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongoose9400 View Post
The Jeep hardly comes close to rolling over. Watching other videos of failures those cars get up high on two wheels or flip. I'll tell you what. Once someone rolls their Jeep then I'll listen.


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only if it rolls over then you'll listen? omg ...

rolling over or not, the performance Jeep had in this video is definitely the bottom 5% of all modern cars (with ESP equipped), or probably even the bottom 2% ...

I just hope Jeep can treat this seriously and come up with a fix very soon (such as a software update for the ESP).
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  #68  
Old 07-21-2012, 08:56 PM
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Re: Jeep Grand Cherokee Moose Test -- Full Story

If you watch the video of the jeep driven by a robot you get different results. So who knows what happens. Also.. when the tires pop, I think its due to the tires hitting the cone at a high speed, at a high pressure, and not to mention they are turning at that speed.
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  #69  
Old 07-21-2012, 08:58 PM
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Re: Jeep Grand Cherokee Moose Test -- Full Story

Good thread, will wait and see what the outcome is.
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  #70  
Old 07-21-2012, 09:17 PM
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Re: Jeep Grand Cherokee Moose Test -- Full Story

Quote:
Originally Posted by cherrybomb05 View Post
If you watch the video of the jeep driven by a robot you get different results. So who knows what happens. Also.. when the tires pop, I think its due to the tires hitting the cone at a high speed, at a high pressure, and not to mention they are turning at that speed.
This video with the robot, is not a fully loaded car running at is max weight. This seems to be the main difference. The only reason the tyre de-beads is due to the weight and load rolling it off the rim. I would expect it to be worse if they brakes and turned, as the wheel would be more loaded than it already was.
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  #71  
Old 07-22-2012, 04:52 AM
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Re: Jeep Grand Cherokee Moose Test -- Full Story

Quote:
Originally Posted by ENFORCER View Post
Guys you need to understand the testing parameters that the tester used.
They went off the JEEP maximum weight loads and tyre pressures, they did not make up their own figures, there were OFFICIAL figures that Jeep supplied to approve the Jeep in the EU.

Apparently it was revealed after, that Jeep under quoted the weight by 158kg. This means that the test was done according to the specs given by Jeep, but in reality it was overweight by 158kg. This is why Jeep took out weight for the 2nd test, where the tyres just blew out.

As for the ESP, it is a serious worry the way the car acts in this test. ESP does not require the driver to activate the brakes, for the ESP to brake the wheels. This is the big advantage of ESP over ABS. ESP is designed to keep the car pointing in the direction the drive needs it to, regardless of the conditions. This allows a driver to steer around a potential crash, rather than just skid into it. The system also has rollover mitigation that is designed to stop the car from getting into a potential rollover profile.

This test reveals that the ESP cannot cope with the conditions that it has been presented with. If you search "Moose Test" on Youtube, you will find several examples of cars that have failed this test. Ironically most do not have ESP fitted. The JGC behaves very much like a car without ESP. It is possible that the extra weight overwhelms the ESP and it just does not react.

There is no point in criticising the test or trying to discredit the scenrio, the fact remains that this test has shown a serious safety issue with this car in a plausable test at a relitave low speed.

This is totally unacceptable for a 2011+ vehicle with all the safety stars and features that has been claimed by Jeep. Regardless of the weight, tyres fitted, testing scenario or any other excused, it is UNACCEPTABLE.

You can either accept the results and demand Jeep address this, or you can keep living in denial and just live back in your alternat reality.

Jeep need to put out either an official statement and what they plan to do to fix it, or provide some proof that there were serious flaws in the test and show us why we should believe them.
I'm completely with you here mate.
You've explained it better than I could, but, if people can't see it due to their rose-coloured glasses, well, let them eat cake.

If JEEP really wants to be judged as a truly high ranking manufacturer and not the borderline laughing stock they are virtually everywhere outside north America, they'll take these results VERY seriously, just as Mercedes did with the A-Class issue. (a much higher rated manufacturer who spend tens of millions fixing the issues.... Worldwide recall)
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Old 07-22-2012, 04:53 AM
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Re: Jeep Grand Cherokee Moose Test -- Full Story

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Originally Posted by cherrybomb05 View Post
Also.. when the tires pop, I think its due to the tires hitting the cone at a high speed, at a high pressure, and not to mention they are turning at that speed.
Are you SERIOUS!?!?!?! HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
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