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  #37  
Old 07-31-2012, 10:16 AM
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Re: Jeep Grand Cherokee Passes "Moose Test" Performed by Germany's Auto Motor and Spo

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Originally Posted by Yadkin View Post
The German magazine did testing by a published third party protocol, and they repeated it 60 times. This protocol uses cones to set turning rates, ensuring consistency.

The Swedish magazine did their testing with their own protocol, and no one is able to reproduce the results. Instead of using cones, the driver simply turns the wheel as fast as he can.
Sorry but this is a silly argument. Now, I'm not saying whether or not the Swedish magazine's test was flawed for other reasons such as improper/over loading, etc. But in the real world, when people perform evasive maneuvers, they don't follow third party protocols. They follow their own "protocol" at that particular moment and based on the set of circumstances that are in front of them.

Also:
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  #38  
Old 07-31-2012, 10:25 AM
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Re: Jeep Grand Cherokee Passes "Moose Test" Performed by Germany's Auto Motor and Spo

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Originally Posted by JeepersCreepers View Post
Sorry but this is a silly argument. Now, I'm not saying whether or not the Swedish magazine's test was flawed for other reasons such as improper/over loading, etc. But in the real world, when people perform evasive maneuvers, they don't follow third party protocols. They follow their own "protocol" at that particular moment and based on the set of circumstances that are in front of them.
In the real world people do all sorts of unpredictable things. In the world of science and testing we follow standard protocols to ensure that the results are repeatable.
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  #39  
Old 07-31-2012, 10:45 AM
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Re: Jeep Grand Cherokee Passes "Moose Test" Performed by Germany's Auto Motor and Spo

They did follow their own protocol and were able to repeat the poor handling behavior several times... see the video above.

Just because the protocol isn't published or from a third party doesn't make it any less valid. Perhaps in the real world it's unlikely that this sort of evasive maneuver would ever be performed (that I can't really say for sure), but it still doesn't inspire confidence in the vehicle's current ESC system/programming, especially since Consumer Reports also discovered an issue with the ESC.
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  #40  
Old 07-31-2012, 01:06 PM
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Re: Jeep Grand Cherokee Passes "Moose Test" Performed by Germany's Auto Motor and Spo

I think the first poster under that video said it quite well:
Quote:
Anyone can clearly see the jeep was steered aggresevily, sharp and fast speed rathar thn Volvo n VW.
That was my impression as well.

But more importantly, if a test cannot be repeated in peer review then the original test is a failure, not the subject of the test.
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  #41  
Old 07-31-2012, 02:59 PM
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Re: Jeep Grand Cherokee Passes "Moose Test" Performed by Germany's Auto Motor and Spo

And how do you know the original test results have not been repeated? Because Jeep has said so? Did Jeep accept doing the test with an "overloaded" vehicle like in the original test? All you know is that a German maganize said they have done their own test and everything is okay. Perhaps you have found the German videos and pictures more convincing than the Swedish ones? Btw where are they so we can take our own conclusions?
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  #42  
Old 07-31-2012, 03:36 PM
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Re: Jeep Grand Cherokee Passes "Moose Test" Performed by Germany's Auto Motor and Spo

How do you know the original test results are accurate - All you know is what a swedish magazined has posted.

Can you see the fallacy in these arguments?

I can test cars for 50 years using whatever method i want and just because ive been doing it for 50 years its correct? Anyone who knows anything about scientific methods knows you dont include the human factor as it cant be controlled. Thats why proper testing methods use robots to test the steering input because it can be THE SAME EVERY TIME!

Even if the test course is identical, the same driver can have different reaction times and control inputs. As shown in the video, where in complete opposition to what they said you can see brakes being applied (the lights come on). According to their method they dont use the brakes, so who applied them? There is just too many contradicting items in all of these stories, again they are all by magazines who have advertising quotas to meet and no applied standard to meet.

And you know what, I dont even know whether the Jeep does have an issue or not, but using the argument that one MAGAZINE has it right over another MAGAZINE is just outright stupid.

Submit your concerns to your countries safety and testing organisation, obtain their proved method testing results and compare, or if you just cant see past the rhetoric sell the damn thing and buy the volvo XC90.


From the Swedish magazines own pages

"Notably, the Jeep Grand Cherokee of the previous generation was moose tested by Teknikens Värld in 2005 and passed 42 mph (67 km/h) without any problems. It worked almost as well as the Volvo XC90, which was tested at the same time.
In 2005 we wrote following:
”The vehicle stability control system with integrated anti-roll system is not among the finest calibrated on the market. But the car does its job, it stops the rollover tendency, braking with the front wheels and understeers out of the track.”

So the last Jeep did ALMOST as well as their reference car which you would assume to be the best out there (it would have to be otherwise whats the use in it being the reference), but then gets dropped back in its place with "It does its job" and "not amongst the finest" - which I wouldn't use if it had ALMOST been as good as the car that i'm comparing every other car i'm testing to?
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  #43  
Old 07-31-2012, 06:03 PM
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Re: Jeep Grand Cherokee Passes "Moose Test" Performed by Germany's Auto Motor and Spo

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Originally Posted by Valpacer View Post
How do you know the original test results are accurate - All you know is what a swedish magazined has posted.
What EVIDENCE have you got to counter their findings ?
Can you see the fallacy in these arguments?
Cant you see that you are the one making up your side of the argument
I can test cars for 50 years using whatever method i want and just because ive been doing it for 50 years its correct? Anyone who knows anything about scientific methods knows you dont include the human factor as it cant be controlled. Thats why proper testing methods use robots to test the steering input because it can be THE SAME EVERY TIME!
If they have been doing the SAME TEST for over 20 years, and most cars have passed, don't you think it deserves some merit ?
Even if the test course is identical, the same driver can have different reaction times and control inputs. As shown in the video, where in complete opposition to what they said you can see brakes being applied (the lights come on). According to their method they dont use the brakes, so who applied them? There is just too many contradicting items in all of these stories, again they are all by magazines who have advertising quotas to meet and no applied standard to meet.
The brakes are applied after the car nearly rolls, or after it has blown the tyre.
And you know what, I dont even know whether the Jeep does have an issue or not, but using the argument that one MAGAZINE has it right over another MAGAZINE is just outright stupid.
Is that not EXACTLY what you are saying ? You are saying one is magazine is out to only sell quotas, yet they provide video and follow up, yet the other one only publishes 2 paragraphs of unsubstantiated findings
Submit your concerns to your countries safety and testing organisation, obtain their proved method testing results and compare, or if you just cant see past the rhetoric sell the damn thing and buy the volvo XC90.
I am happy that the Jeep passed all the standard ANCAP/EUCAP tests, but REAL WORLD testing in the form of that magazine and the USA Consumer magazine have revealed a serious safety problem

From the Swedish magazines own pages

"Notably, the Jeep Grand Cherokee of the previous generation was moose tested by Teknikens Värld in 2005 and passed 42 mph (67 km/h) without any problems. It worked almost as well as the Volvo XC90, which was tested at the same time.
In 2005 we wrote following:
”The vehicle stability control system with integrated anti-roll system is not among the finest calibrated on the market. But the car does its job, it stops the rollover tendency, braking with the front wheels and understeers out of the track.”

So the last Jeep did ALMOST as well as their reference car which you would assume to be the best out there (it would have to be otherwise whats the use in it being the reference), but then gets dropped back in its place with "It does its job" and "not amongst the finest" - which I wouldn't use if it had ALMOST been as good as the car that i'm comparing every other car i'm testing to?
You are now sounding as dumb as we all think you are. The last model did not almost roll and blow out all the tyres. Go back to lala land and let the adults talk now.
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  #44  
Old 07-31-2012, 06:04 PM
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Re: Jeep Grand Cherokee Passes "Moose Test" Performed by Germany's Auto Motor and Spo

Since when isn't the "human factor" not taken into consideration when using the scientific method? Even on the most basic scientific experiment like measuring the lenght of an object with a ruler the "human factor" is taken into consideration -- provided you use the scientific method!

As for the comparison between the XC90 and the2005 WK, the text you quoted is self-explanatory as far as your question. Both were tested at the same time. Also don't forget the English quotations we have seen are automated translations. Who knows what's missing?

As far as I'm concerned the most annoying thing regarding this whole issue has been Chrysler's response. Right or wrong the Swedish magazine came up with videos where the WK2 almost tipped over or bursted tires. We as Jeep owners should expect more from Chrysler than a couple of lousy press releases.
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  #45  
Old 07-31-2012, 06:15 PM
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Re: Jeep Grand Cherokee Passes "Moose Test" Performed by Germany's Auto Motor and Spo

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Originally Posted by ENFORCER View Post
You are now sounding as dumb as we all think you are. The last model did not almost roll and blow out all the tyres. Go back to lala land and let the adults talk now.
Wow. Just Wow.
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  #46  
Old 08-01-2012, 05:43 AM
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Re: Jeep Grand Cherokee Passes "Moose Test" Performed by Germany's Auto Motor and Spo

Recent tests and also investigations into reported engine fires related to power steering...

http://www.caradvice.com.au/183883/j...rollover-test/
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  #47  
Old 08-01-2012, 08:24 AM
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Re: Jeep Grand Cherokee Passes "Moose Test" Performed by Germany's Auto Motor and Spo

Quote:
Originally Posted by nvfusa View Post
Since when isn't the "human factor" not taken into consideration when using the scientific method? Even on the most basic scientific experiment like measuring the lenght of an object with a ruler the "human factor" is taken into consideration -- provided you use the scientific method!

As for the comparison between the XC90 and the2005 WK, the text you quoted is self-explanatory as far as your question. Both were tested at the same time. Also don't forget the English quotations we have seen are automated translations. Who knows what's missing?
In a scientific test any "human factor" should be removed if possible, and if not, minimized. Anyone who has taken a high school science lab should be well aware of that.

The Swedes can speak English quite well, so they can translate just as well. Their bias is exposed in their own writing.
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  #48  
Old 08-01-2012, 08:34 AM
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Re: Jeep Grand Cherokee Passes "Moose Test" Performed by Germany's Auto Motor and Spo

Well, down to the facts:

AMS did the testing after adjusting the weight to the max car weight specified by jeep

Tecnikkenswärld added the weight permitted by jeep to the car, thus exceeding the max car weight since the net weight of the was higher than specified.

The overloaded car then behaved erratically

..The thing is, why didnt the jeep engineers present at the test in sweden adress this issue ? (probably they didnt bring a suitable car scale )

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