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  #37  
Old 11-27-2010, 12:23 AM
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Re: My Aunt just got a WK2 and she's not happy...

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Originally Posted by xmonger View Post
True, but it's also important to note that the ATRAC type systems use braking to reduce power to the slipping wheel. (In many applications, the diffs are still completely open.) On snow and ice it's pretty effective where too much power will quickly overcome available traction. In offroad situations reducing available power isn't the best solution and these systems are not as effective as limited slips which in turn aren't as effective as true lockers.

I think in vehicles with capable "4x4" systems; which both the Grand Cherokee and 4Runner have, the limiting factors usually are ground clearance and tires.

That's why gearing is so important...since braking a wheel causes a loss of power and full power never gets to the other wheel, the engine's torque and the gearing play a big part to ensure that the vehicle can keep moving even under a very low traction situation. I agree that it's not as good as a true locker, but I think it's every bit as good or better (in some situations) than a limited slip differential. In my own experiences, I've been totally amazing how quickly power can be transferred from right to left and vice versa. The system can allow you to crawl out of almost anything by having such a fast transfer. And when you combine that with a locked center diff, it really does work amazingly well. Toyota has offered an OEM locking rear diff on the Trail Edition models since the 2009 model year, but most guys say they never really need it because the ATRAC system does such a good job. I'm actually surprised Toyota offered it at all considering the fact that it disappeared from the option list for like 8 years.
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  #38  
Old 11-27-2010, 01:59 AM
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Re: My Aunt just got a WK2 and she's not happy...

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Originally Posted by thex2 View Post
I'm not sure if this is true or not, but I've always had the understanding that AWD will direct power to all four wheels and 4WD will direct power to the front and rear differential. 4WD without lockers, limited slip, etc, is essentially 2WD; 1 rear wheel with power and one front wheel with power.

AWD:
4WD:

While I realize there are systems in place that help the AWD send torque to all four wheels, I question whether an AWD system can have the ability to only send power to two wheels at a time while the system is fully engaged like a 4WD system can do.

I couldn't really figure out the answer on google, so if anybody wants to chip in and clarify this for me, that'd be very helpful. Thanks
Not quite sure what I was thinking with this post.

Your aunt should be indifferent between AWD and 4WD HI in the snow because it's the same thing. The advantages for 4WD HI come when it's dry because you can disengage the front and turn the vehicle into a 2WD vehicle. The time that she should be upset is in the summer when she's getting worse MPG.
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  #39  
Old 11-27-2010, 10:15 AM
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Re: My Aunt just got a WK2 and she's not happy...

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Originally Posted by thex2 View Post
Not quite sure what I was thinking with this post.

Your aunt should be indifferent between AWD and 4WD HI in the snow because it's the same thing. The advantages for 4WD HI come when it's dry because you can disengage the front and turn the vehicle into a 2WD vehicle. The time that she should be upset is in the summer when she's getting worse MPG.
You can't really make a blanket statement like that and be entirely accurate. Like I said, 4wd systems vary quite a bit and the same is true of AWD systems. Some are simply better than others.

And also keep in mind that there are plenty of 4wd vehicles that don't have the ability to switch strictly to 2wd. Just look at these Jeeps, for example. As other have said, the lines have blurred between what is 4wd and what is AWD.
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  #40  
Old 11-27-2010, 11:14 AM
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Re: My Aunt just got a WK2 and she's not happy...

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Originally Posted by MSCA View Post
That's why gearing is so important...since braking a wheel causes a loss of power and full power never gets to the other wheel, the engine's torque and the gearing play a big part to ensure that the vehicle can keep moving even under a very low traction situation. I agree that it's not as good as a true locker, but I think it's every bit as good or better (in some situations) than a limited slip differential. In my own experiences, I've been totally amazing how quickly power can be transferred from right to left and vice versa. The system can allow you to crawl out of almost anything by having such a fast transfer. And when you combine that with a locked center diff, it really does work amazingly well. Toyota has offered an OEM locking rear diff on the Trail Edition models since the 2009 model year, but most guys say they never really need it because the ATRAC system does such a good job. I'm actually surprised Toyota offered it at all considering the fact that it disappeared from the option list for like 8 years.

QT1 (at least in the WK1) used Jeep's BTCS (Brake Traction Control System) to act much the same as ATRAC. The only difference being no center diff lock or 4LO. In fact, these brake type systems seem to be the standard base awd offering for many manufacturers these days.

IMHO, there is nothing special about them (for serious off-road work) unless a center lock and locker or limited slip is added to the mix.
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  #41  
Old 11-27-2010, 11:42 AM
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Re: My Aunt just got a WK2 and she's not happy...

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Originally Posted by MSCA View Post
You can't really make a blanket statement like that and be entirely accurate. Like I said, 4wd systems vary quite a bit and the same is true of AWD systems. Some are simply better than others.

And also keep in mind that there are plenty of 4wd vehicles that don't have the ability to switch strictly to 2wd. Just look at these Jeeps, for example. As other have said, the lines have blurred between what is 4wd and what is AWD.
I wasn't trying to make a blanket statement like it sounded. I was just trying to compare a basic 4WD setup to a basic AWD setup. Features like QT or ARB air lockers can be added in and debated after starting with a drive system. I was only trying to give you something to help explain it to your aunt. If I'm still wrong, then please elaborate because I'm curious to learn more on the subject.

As others have mentioned, if she gets a good set of tires, she should be fine.
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  #42  
Old 11-27-2010, 01:37 PM
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Re: My Aunt just got a WK2 and she's not happy...

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Originally Posted by thex2 View Post
I wasn't trying to make a blanket statement like it sounded. I was just trying to compare a basic 4WD setup to a basic AWD setup. Features like QT or ARB air lockers can be added in and debated after starting with a drive system. I was only trying to give you something to help explain it to your aunt. If I'm still wrong, then please elaborate because I'm curious to learn more on the subject.

As others have mentioned, if she gets a good set of tires, she should be fine.
It's not that you are wrong, it's just that you seem to be missing the point. My Aunt is upset because she feels that she bought an AWD Jeep when she thought she was buying a 4wd Jeep. It doesn't matter what she wants to call it, what really matters is if her Jeep will perform as well as she needs it to in the snow. And if her QTI system will work well for her, I'm sure she'll be happy....but trying to explain to her the differences between 4wd systems and AWD systems is pointless simply because they all vary so much. Once she gets the chance to drive her new Jeep in the snow, I'm sure everything will be okay and she'll appreciate it for what it is...

In the meantime, she can call it whatever she wants.
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  #43  
Old 11-27-2010, 05:37 PM
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Re: My Aunt just got a WK2 and she's not happy...

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Originally Posted by MSCA View Post
It's not that you are wrong, it's just that you seem to be missing the point. My Aunt is upset because she feels that she bought an AWD Jeep when she thought she was buying a 4wd Jeep. It doesn't matter what she wants to call it, what really matters is if her Jeep will perform as well as she needs it to in the snow. And if her QTI system will work well for her, I'm sure she'll be happy....but trying to explain to her the differences between 4wd systems and AWD systems is pointless simply because they all vary so much. Once she gets the chance to drive her new Jeep in the snow, I'm sure everything will be okay and she'll appreciate it for what it is...

In the meantime, she can call it whatever she wants.
If that's the case... what's the goal of this thread again
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  #44  
Old 11-27-2010, 07:08 PM
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Re: My Aunt just got a WK2 and she's not happy...

Well, if you read the first post in this thread, I explained my Aunt's dilemma and then asked for opinions on how well her new Jeep with QTI would serve her purposes as described in the post. I didn't think that was too difficult to understand....
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Old 11-27-2010, 08:10 PM
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Re: My Aunt just got a WK2 and she's not happy...

I posted a vid of how it would perform in snow on a steep driveway......
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  #46  
Old 11-28-2010, 12:04 AM
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Re: My Aunt just got a WK2 and she's not happy...

Interesting thread.

Goes to show you that you need to do your research to be sure you know what you are buying I guess. And do not listen to salesmen. A lot of them really don't know what they are talking about. It is a shame. But anyway, she should be fine with what she bought as long as she is not off-roading it. Oh, and tires are EVERYTHING so depending on what is on it, she might want to get a good set of A/T's. You should help her with that.

For the record, I live in "Upstate NY" and "Upstate NY" is North of Albany where we get plenty of snow (usually).
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Old 11-28-2010, 12:12 AM
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Re: My Aunt just got a WK2 and she's not happy...

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Interesting thread.

Goes to show you that you need to do your research to be sure you know what you are buying I guess. And do not listen to salesmen. A lot of them really don't know what they are talking about. It is a shame. But anyway, she should be fine with what she bought as long as she is not off-roading it. Oh, and tires are EVERYTHING so depending on what is on it, she might want to get a good set of A/T's. You should help her with that.

For the record, I live in "Upstate NY" and "Upstate NY" is North of Albany where we get plenty of snow (usually).
Yeah, I wish I would have known she was buying a WK2. I could've helped her out for sure. Oh well....I think it was an impulse decision. She said she was car shopping and liked the look of the new Grand Cherokees. After a test drive, she said that she felt safe and really liked the ride. She bought her Jeep off the lot that same day.

As for upstate NY, well, I still think it's all relative. I have family in Lake Placid and they wouldn't consider Albany anywhere near upstate. That's way downstate to them. And people who live in NYC think I live in upstate NY, which always makes me laugh. I have family in the Syracuse area as well, and I think they get more snow on average than anywhere in NY.
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Old 11-28-2010, 11:43 AM
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Re: My Aunt just got a WK2 and she's not happy...

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Originally Posted by MSCA View Post
Yeah, I wish I would have known she was buying a WK2. I could've helped her out for sure. Oh well....I think it was an impulse decision. She said she was car shopping and liked the look of the new Grand Cherokees. After a test drive, she said that she felt safe and really liked the ride. She bought her Jeep off the lot that same day.

As for upstate NY, well, I still think it's all relative. I have family in Lake Placid and they wouldn't consider Albany anywhere near upstate. That's way downstate to them. And people who live in NYC think I live in upstate NY, which always makes me laugh. I have family in the Syracuse area as well, and I think they get more snow on average than anywhere in NY.
That we do for a metropolitan area. Each year Rochester, Buffalo and Syracuse are in line for the "Golden Snowball" award for the most snow. I can't remember when Syracuse did not win. I posted the average snow we get. Just to our north is the Tug Hill area which includes small towns like Oswego and Redfield which average up to 16' of snow a season. In one recent year, they had over 11' of snow in one week.

As I posted, Laredos do just fine up here and snow tires will make all the difference in the driveway she has. Her Laredo will be a snow beast with Blizzaks and over 8 inches of stock clearance. Stock tires could leave her stuck or disappointed in it's performance if her driveway builds up a little ice or 4 inches or more of snow.
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