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Old 08-01-2015, 04:22 AM
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New Honda Pilot vs Grand Cherokee (warning…)

I plan to buy a GC, but this points out some disadvantages.


Basically, the new 2016 Honda Pilot is bigger than the GC but weighs an astonishing 1000 lbs less. Thus, with 80 fewer horsepower and a 2mpg advantage, the V6 Pilot is faster to 60mph than the V8 GC.

I understand: the Pilot is basically a minivan at this point with little off-road ability, and that the GC’s off-road capabilities add weight. But the Grand Cherokee, in spite of its Mercedes-based platform, is starting show its age while next-generation SUVs show the advantages of the latest efficiency measures.

I really want a V8 (before they’re extinct) and am glad it’s optional on GC, but let's face it, the 5.7 Hemi could be more efficient.

’16 Honda Pilot AWD / ’15 Grand Cherokee 4x4

base price: $47,300 (Elite) / $43,355 (Limited w/5.7)
3.5 V6, 280hp, 262 lb-ft / 5.7 V8, 360hp, 390 lb-ft
ZF 9sp / ZF 8sp

OA length 194 / 190
OA width 78.6 / 76.5
wt 4303 / 5325

Car and Driver tests
0-60 6.1 / 6.5
70-0 180ft / 180ft
skidpad .80 (w/20”s) / .76 (w/18”s)
mpg (observed) 18 / 16

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  #2  
Old 08-01-2015, 07:37 AM
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Re: New Honda Pilot vs Grand Cherokee (warning…)

I'm curious about your choice of model/trim/engine comparison. Wouldn't a gas V6 Overland be a closer comparison?

The larger Pilot weighing 1000 lbs less is not much of a surprise when you consider the differences in engine, 4WD systems and the Pilot's lack of ORAII. Those items aside, the question I have about the remainder of weight difference is in material and construction choices on the Pilot. There are some compromises with weight reduction. Will it hold up as well in an accident and not be a cheaply constructed, rumbly, rattle trap like my Accord is?

Why do you feel that the GC's platform is showing its age, and exactly what are the Pilot's advantages of the latest efficiency measures over the GC?

- I see a 280 HP V6 versus a 360 HP V8 that only manages a 2 MPG advantage, even with having an extra gear in the tranny. The 290 HP V6 GC would be a better comparison and most likely would do better than the Pilot... even with an additional 1000 lbs to move. Wouldn't that indicate that the GC's gas V6 is more efficient?

- For a vehicle that weighs 1000 lbs less, it doesn't stop any quicker in the 70-0 test.

- A .4/sec difference in 0-60 acceleration time only matters in drag racing and would hardly be noticed by the average Joe on the street.

- The skidpad test is relatively meaningless when it compares a lighter vehicle with 20 inch tires to a heavier one with 18 inch tires.

- That $4K difference in MSRP is more than enough to cover the additional cost of gas for a Hemi V8 that averaged only 2 MPG less than the Pilot's V6 in that test. And you'd still have change left over by the time you decide to replace the Hemi with something else.

- The Pilot never was and never will be a Jeep in any regard... so really, it's no comparison.
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Old 08-01-2015, 08:11 AM
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Another fwd minivan looking "suv" just like the pathfiner, ruined. At least the old body style pilot looked like an suv even though it was just an a to b. I wonder if honda got that 9spd zf to shift right lol
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Old 08-01-2015, 08:39 AM
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Re: New Honda Pilot vs Grand Cherokee (warning…)

I have always been a Honda/Acura fan, but MDBones puts up some good points. Only two mpg different and we are talking a big HP and TQ difference. Then compare the Pentastar with it and the Grand Cherokee does better on fuel and still weighs a lot more and is far more capable.
Based on the info in this thread, considering this Pilot is a brand new platform the numbers don't blow me away by any means yet. Even though my Jeeps have all been excellent vehicles, one place the Honda may shine against the GC is in the reliability department.
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Old 08-01-2015, 09:23 AM
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Re: New Honda Pilot vs Grand Cherokee (warning…)

All good points.

I'm curious about your choice of model/trim/engine comparison. Wouldn't a gas V6 Overland be a closer comparison?
The models were used because they were the C/D test vehicles from which the numbers were taken.
I was focused on performance; so my point was that even the bigger engine GC is slower than the Pilot's V6 which implies general inefficiency. A V6 GC would be even slower.

The larger Pilot weighing 1000 lbs less is not much of a surprise when you consider the differences in engine, 4WD systems and the Pilot's lack of ORAII. Those items aside, the question I have about the remainder of weight difference is in material and construction choices on the Pilot. There are some compromises with weight reduction. Will it hold up as well in an accident and not be a cheaply constructed, rumbly, rattle trap like my Accord is?

The V6 Overland C/D tested weighed almost 5000 lbs (4987). (They weigh each test car themselves.) So the V6 GC is still some 700 lbs. heavier.
The IIHS crash test results for both GC and the previous Pilot were the institute’s highest in 4 of 5 categories (in the 5th, “small front overlap,” the Jeep was better, but this could be improved on the new Pilot.)


Why do you feel that the GC's platform is showing its age, and exactly what are the Pilot's advantages of the latest efficiency measures over the GC?

Because 1000 lbs or even 700 lbs lighter for a bigger vehicle is a huge difference. But yes, as I said, the Jeep is capable of much more off-road, which adds weight.

- I see a 280 HP V6 versus a 360 HP V8 that only manages a 2 MPG advantage, even with having an extra gear in the tranny. The 290 HP V6 GC would be a better comparison and most likely would do better than the Pilot... even with an additional 1000 lbs to move. Wouldn't that indicate that the GC's gas V6 is more efficient?

I agree, the Pilot's MPG is not that impressive. C/D got 17 on a V6 Overland, but they also got 19 overall with their long term V6 GC. So I agree, the Jeep’s V6 is good. Again, I was focused on on-road performance.


- For a vehicle that weighs 1000 lbs less, it doesn't stop any quicker in the 70-0 test.
Agreed, this is surprising. There are a lot of variables for braking distances though.

- A .4/sec difference in 0-60 acceleration time only matters in drag racing and would hardly be noticed by the average Joe on the street.

I’m interested in on-road performance and that was the main point of my post.

- The skidpad test is relatively meaningless when it compares a lighter vehicle with 20 inch tires to a heavier one with 18 inch tires.

Sure, but again, weight is the enemy, and the new Honda is impressive for its size.

- That $4K difference in MSRP is more than enough to cover the additional cost of gas for a Hemi V8 that averaged only 2 MPG less than the Pilot's V6 in that test. And you'd still have change left over by the time you decide to replace the Hemi with something else.

This was the highest level Pilot vs a low-mid level Jeep, but the pricing is not really relevant to my point. We must assume any other V6 Pilot would perform slightly better because of fewer options (Elite is the top trim), while the converse would be true for the Jeep: a bit worse performance due to even more weight because of more heavy options (suspension, LSD, sunroof, etc.)

- The Pilot never was and never will be a Jeep in any regard... so really, it's no comparison.

I agree! Every time I read about some minivan-ized SUV, I thank god for the Grand Cherokee. I just wish it were a bit lighter, a bit more responsive on-road, and especially that the 5.7 was more efficient. As I said, I still plan to buy one, and, unfortunately, I can’t afford an SRT.
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Old 08-01-2015, 09:51 AM
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Re: New Honda Pilot vs Grand Cherokee (warning…)

There is no way the V6 Pilot is faster to 60 than the Hemi. Just don't believe it.

The Pilot is an appliance. No thanks.
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Old 08-01-2015, 10:03 AM
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Re: New Honda Pilot vs Grand Cherokee (warning…)

For me (and I'm assuming many others that are interested in an SUV) the biggest problem I have with that Pilot is that's it's just ugly as sin. Looks too much like streamlined cargo van for my taste. The JGC has a more aggressive look to it.
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Old 08-01-2015, 10:20 AM
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Re: New Honda Pilot vs Grand Cherokee (warning…)

The Jeep will have better resale value too.
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Old 08-01-2015, 10:36 AM
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Re: New Honda Pilot vs Grand Cherokee (warning…)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikita View Post
All good points.

I'm curious about your choice of model/trim/engine comparison. Wouldn't a gas V6 Overland be a closer comparison?
The models were used because they were the C/D test vehicles from which the numbers were taken.
I was focused on performance; so my point was that even the bigger engine GC is slower than the Pilot's V6 which implies general inefficiency. A V6 GC would be even slower.

The larger Pilot weighing 1000 lbs less is not much of a surprise when you consider the differences in engine, 4WD systems and the Pilot's lack of ORAII. Those items aside, the question I have about the remainder of weight difference is in material and construction choices on the Pilot. There are some compromises with weight reduction. Will it hold up as well in an accident and not be a cheaply constructed, rumbly, rattle trap like my Accord is?

The V6 Overland C/D tested weighed almost 5000 lbs (4987). (They weigh each test car themselves.) So the V6 GC is still some 700 lbs. heavier.
The IIHS crash test results for both GC and the previous Pilot were the institute’s highest in 4 of 5 categories (in the 5th, “small front overlap,” the Jeep was better, but this could be improved on the new Pilot.)


Why do you feel that the GC's platform is showing its age, and exactly what are the Pilot's advantages of the latest efficiency measures over the GC?

Because 1000 lbs or even 700 lbs lighter for a bigger vehicle is a huge difference. But yes, as I said, the Jeep is capable of much more off-road, which adds weight.

- I see a 280 HP V6 versus a 360 HP V8 that only manages a 2 MPG advantage, even with having an extra gear in the tranny. The 290 HP V6 GC would be a better comparison and most likely would do better than the Pilot... even with an additional 1000 lbs to move. Wouldn't that indicate that the GC's gas V6 is more efficient?

I agree, the Pilot's MPG is not that impressive. C/D got 17 on a V6 Overland, but they also got 19 overall with their long term V6 GC. So I agree, the Jeep’s V6 is good. Again, I was focused on on-road performance.


- For a vehicle that weighs 1000 lbs less, it doesn't stop any quicker in the 70-0 test.
Agreed, this is surprising. There are a lot of variables for braking distances though.

- A .4/sec difference in 0-60 acceleration time only matters in drag racing and would hardly be noticed by the average Joe on the street.

I’m interested in on-road performance and that was the main point of my post.

- The skidpad test is relatively meaningless when it compares a lighter vehicle with 20 inch tires to a heavier one with 18 inch tires.

Sure, but again, weight is the enemy, and the new Honda is impressive for its size.

- That $4K difference in MSRP is more than enough to cover the additional cost of gas for a Hemi V8 that averaged only 2 MPG less than the Pilot's V6 in that test. And you'd still have change left over by the time you decide to replace the Hemi with something else.

This was the highest level Pilot vs a low-mid level Jeep, but the pricing is not really relevant to my point. We must assume any other V6 Pilot would perform slightly better because of fewer options (Elite is the top trim), while the converse would be true for the Jeep: a bit worse performance due to even more weight because of more heavy options (suspension, LSD, sunroof, etc.)

- The Pilot never was and never will be a Jeep in any regard... so really, it's no comparison.

I agree! Every time I read about some minivan-ized SUV, I thank god for the Grand Cherokee. I just wish it were a bit lighter, a bit more responsive on-road, and especially that the 5.7 was more efficient. As I said, I still plan to buy one, and, unfortunately, I can’t afford an SRT.
I'm not knocking the Pilot, even though I'd never consider buying one.

The point I was trying to make was that even in comparing these obviously dissimilar model/engine/4WD systems, the Pilot has only marginal performance advantages in a couple of areas that for the average person are meaningless.

And because of those marginal performance differences, it makes a strong argument that the GC's drivetrain really is the more efficient of the two. If you could shave 1000 lbs off the GC, those marginal differences would definitely flip in favor of the GC.

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Old 08-01-2015, 10:37 AM
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Re: New Honda Pilot vs Grand Cherokee (warning…)

I've seen the new pilot and it looks like an oversized CRV.
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Old 08-01-2015, 10:41 AM
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Re: New Honda Pilot vs Grand Cherokee (warning…)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssgunner View Post
I've seen the new pilot and it looks like an oversized CRV.
LOL... not that I've ever thought a Pilot looked good but the new one looks better than the previous generation. But it still has a looooong way to go to compete with the GC in the looks department.

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Old 08-01-2015, 11:02 AM
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Re: New Honda Pilot vs Grand Cherokee (warning…)

I too was surprised to hear about the Pilot supposedly being quicker than the V8 Grand Cherokee...even though I know you posted numbers, I still have a hard time believing it. The '14+ grand cherokee V8 with that 8spd pulls pretty impressively. I know it would never be considered fast, but reading that they claim a 280hp V6 suv can outrun it is a bit surprising.
Reading these weight and hp figures sometimes makes me wonder how I managed to stay alive when I owned my C6 Z06 vette which was 505hp at 3,000lbs lol.
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