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  #133  
Old 01-22-2014, 08:09 AM
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Re: Pay close attention on that walkthrough!!

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Originally Posted by SW03ES View Post
You're reaching. The JGC is not an incredibly high volume vehicle...many other vehicles are sold and produced at that volume and more. Whether you accept it or not, Chrysler has QC issues that need to be addressed both in assembly and on the dealer level, especially if they want to be taken seriously alongside luxury makes as they have said they want to be. The mere fact that you have so many people who have great problem free units and those of us who have a lot of problems...without a lot of middle ground...shows you that consistency is a problem for Jeep.
I was giving you a point of perspective based on a previous post. Porsche sold about 8k 911s in 2012 (2013 numbers not released as far as I can tell via quick search). That # of GCs roll off the line about every 7 days.

I have agreed in previous posts that QC needs to improve. Absolutely no doubt.
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  #134  
Old 01-22-2014, 11:43 AM
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Re: Pay close attention on that walkthrough!!

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Originally Posted by SW03ES View Post


....other carmakers are rated as highly above average.

....No such thing as a 2014.5
Some are above, some are below - thats why they call it average - they can't all be above average.

Yes, I know there is no such thing as 14.5, but I was having fun with my signature. Sorry if this offends you (or bothers you), but too bad, cuz I'm not changing it for you. (and don't say this doesn't bother you, as you have now brought this up twice).
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  #135  
Old 01-22-2014, 12:02 PM
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Re: Pay close attention on that walkthrough!!

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Originally Posted by Shannon View Post
Some are above, some are below - thats why they call it average - they can't all be above average.
Thats meaningless. We know that Jeep is below average. Whether there are other carmakers below average or further below average is not the point. We're talking about Jeep...and IQS, dealer satisfaction and dependability are below average. That needs to change if they want to compete with the luxury and mainstream brands that are above average, especially the luxury brands. If you look at the 2013 IQS there are 21 makes that are rated higher. Meaning, those buyers have less concerns and issues with their vehicles at new. There are only 11 brands worse.

Thats like trying to tell a prospective employer that your C- average in college is okay because lots of other people are below average, and some people have even lower grades. The fact is...if you have a C- average you are not an exceptional candidate...there are many other candidates with better transcripts. This is the situation Jeep is in.

They don't have to be the best, but they need consistent above average quality, and they need consistent at least average reliability, and they need consistent above average dealer satisfaction. There should not be some units with many failures and some with none. You don't really see that spread in say a Toyota.

Quote:
Yes, I know there is no such thing as 14.5, but I was having fun with my signature. Sorry if this offends you (or bothers you), but too bad, cuz I'm not changing it for you. (and don't say this doesn't bother you, as you have now brought this up twice).
I really don't care, its just funny. You obviously create your own reality and thats fine.
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  #136  
Old 01-22-2014, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by SW03ES View Post
I'm not making any such comparisons...nor am I saying about "overwhelming scale". One persons anecdote anyways tells us nothing about Porsche. I've said, we're not talking about one Jeep issue here. They are all over the forum. You guys keep trying to say I'm making all these generalizations to discredit me, All I have ever said is that Jeep has issues with consistent QC.
But that's not what you, or several other people say. You make assertions and remarks that indicate Jeep quality control is very inferior to a number of other brands, if not most. I doubt you'd have much of a problem getting anyone to say "Jeep QC could use some improvement." I could say that about any automaker -- none have a zero defect track record (and likely never will). But what you, and several others, tend to do is work with extremist language, and less-than-relevant examples. This is argument by logical fallacy. When you're called out on that specific language or those specific examples and fallacies, you rapidly move to either indicating anyone against it is simply a "fanboy" or you attempt to reinstate the argument as if you were stating the less extremist point of view all along.

Note here, and again, there are few to no people on here that wouldn't love it if Jeep's QC was at the stellar top. But the more realistic and less negative/extremist of us view it as an evolving process and also that the issues are not WORLDs different from any other manufacturer. Example, even the BEST in JD Powers initial quality survey still has 80 problems per 100 vehicles. The worst (Scion) is at 161. The average is at 113.

Quote:
Moreso than many other brands. The evidence is there...JD Power results, Consumer Report results. The many posts on this forum. The best argument you fanboys can mount is "it happens just as much to other brands"...when there is nothing but evidence that shows that's not really the case.
Again, extremist use of logical fallacy here. "There is nothing but evidence that shows that's not really the case." This is flatly wrong. There is a lot of evidence that shows it IS the case. The BEST (Lexus) in the JD Powers example above is STILL 80 problems per 100 vehicles. That's not zero. Nor is it vastly different from the industry average of 113. It's not even that different from the worst. One needs to understand statistical relevance and margins of error to intelligently have this discussion and from your language it appears you don't understand these things.

For example, while it is true you can say the best (Lexus=80) is at one half the problems of the worst (Scion), this would be a less than accurate understanding of the whole picture. For starters, in any self-reported survey, you generally need about a 5-10 point margin of error. Secondly, given that we are talking about the statistical relevance of problems or defects, while perceptively 80 is better than 161, it does not have the same relevance as would a case of 0 compared to 100. The spread matters...a LOT.

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The most ridiculous argument is that "if you wanted the Jeep to be better built it would cost a lot more" like the Jeep is some sort of an economy car...ridiculous.
Extremist talk yet again -> "like the Jeep is some sort of an economy car." What did that at all have to do with the argument? The argument simply stated that for the same feature set, generally you'd expect a much more expensive vehicle in order to attain higher quality. In general, and in most industries this is 100% a true statement. Remember the old mantra: There's cheap, fast, and good. Pick any two. In the case of manufacturing, you can have cheap and fast (many units produced), but it won't be as good. You can have fast production and good quality, but it won't be cheap. Etc...etc...etc.

Quote:
Find me some data or source that would lead anyone to believe that Chrysler/Jeep initial quality (satisfaction with vehicles at new) or reliability is even at the industry average. There is none. You can say it's gotten better, but I would argue that the 2014 has been a huge step backwards from a place that was improved but had a long way left to go as it was.
Actually, JD Power's initial quality survey does put Jeep at in the average range if you understood statistics better and didn't take the simple approach in order to make such wide sweeping statements. Jeep stands at 118. The mean average is 113. The statistical error is +/- 5-10 with those numbers, the type of data, and the sample sizes used. Therefore, if the mean is 113, anyone in the range of 103 - 123 is within the average range. If you understood statistics you'd understand this. You either don't understand, or you're relying on other people not understanding this and just using the strict "mean" number to try to make your point. Using the real numbers and understanding what they mean, anyone saying Jeep falls within the average range is absolutely correct by this data set. Does that mean average is fantastic? No, but with a range of 80 - 161 problems per 100 vehicles to go with I wouldn't call ANY of that stellar. But it is the reality of current manufacturing.

JD Powers even boilerplates their numbers indicating that the specific numbers are not strictly statistically valid BECAUSE of the above phenomenon.

Would I love it if Jeep rated a 60 instead of 118? Would it be bad if they slipped to 160? Sure. But will it make a any statistically significant difference if they are at 112 instead of 118? No. And that's the point being made here. Quit using extremist language to indicate that Jeep is so many worlds below anyone else. They're not. Below yes. Improvable yes. Horribly out of whack comparison-wise by the numbers? No.

As for your assertion of 2014 being a "huge step backwards" and the implication that Jeep as a whole is headed down, you simply have to deal with reality. They did a major model refresh, and every single manufacturer sees a jump in problem reports when they either (1) introduce a new model into production or (2) do a major refresh on an existing model. Every single one. Would I love it if this wasn't the case? Absolutely. However, this is just manufacturing and design reality in the modern world. NOBODY has found a way avoid this. Using it as any kind of benchmark on ANY manufacturer is begging the question, plain and simple. Do you know why EVERY manufacturer staggers their model refreshes and new model introductions instead of every one at once? That's not accidental or just the way it happened. Its BECAUSE of this phenomenon. And the reason they ALL do this (every single last one of them) is because they ALL know the new design or refresh is going to have a higher incident/problem rate.

Quote:
If the best thing you can say is "they aren't the worst" that's a problem to me. I was prepared for a vehicle built more poorly and less reliable than I was used to...but I wasn't prepared for what my Jeep has been when you take all the things I love about it out of the equation. It's just not a quality vehicle unfortunately.
Nobody is saying, as a best argument, that "they aren't the worst." They're simply taking exception with your assertions and fallacies that they are SO much worse than anyone else such as Lexus, etc...etc...etc. They aren't. The numbers don't support your assertions of being so horrible.

A REASONABLE discussion would include the knowledge of these things.
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  #137  
Old 01-22-2014, 12:47 PM
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Re: Pay close attention on that walkthrough!!

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Originally Posted by SW03ES View Post
Thats meaningless. We know that Jeep is below average.
Since you are keeping yourself informed, probably better than anyone on the forum, could you compile a list of all the problems you are referring to, and the number of distinct occurrences.

It might be there are more 'repeat customers', which would make the problems seem more wide spread than they really are. Or maybe a lot of the problems are systemic and should be of real concern.


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  #138  
Old 01-22-2014, 01:57 PM
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Re: Pay close attention on that walkthrough!!

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Originally Posted by bill_de View Post
Since you are keeping yourself informed, probably better than anyone on the forum, could you compile a list of all the problems you are referring to, and the number of distinct occurrences.
No. Just read the forums. I can tell you what my problems are but I'm not a data compilation service. I read the forums every day, you have access to the same threads I do. Hell...you're usually posting in them telling the poster who is having problems "It happens with every brand"...so you see the same things I do.

Quote:
It might be there are more 'repeat customers', which would make the problems seem more wide spread than they really are. Or maybe a lot of the problems are systemic and should be of real concern.
LOL...why are you just so unwilling to accept that there are QC control issues here? Are YOU a Chrysler plant? I'm kidding by the way. "Repeat customers"? Huh?!?

Every source and every statistic and piece of data support the position that Jeep's reliability is below average. You will not find one non biased industry source that disagrees with that statement. The information posted in this forum backs up that conclusion as well...

If you refuse to accept that, thats fine but it doesn't change the facts.
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  #139  
Old 01-22-2014, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SW03ES View Post
No. Just read the forums. I can tell you what my problems are but I'm not a data compilation service. I read the forums every day, you have access to the same threads I do. Hell...you're usually posting in them telling the poster who is having problems "It happens with every brand"...so you see the same things I do. LOL...why are you just so unwilling to accept that there are QC control issues here?
So forum traffic is your benchmark? I've already addressed your mischaracterization of other statistics, so let's consider something here. You seem to use Lexus a lot for your comparisons so we'll start with that.

Lexus currently holds about 1.5% of the US market with an annual production target of ALL models of around 260-270,000. That's ALL of their models, and that's higher than previous years which had smaller production numbers.

Jeep makes more than half that amount of vehicles in one model only. Add all models together and they far outstrip the Lexus production figures. Plus, if you consider the fact that you really need to a add certain Dodge and Chrysler vehicles to these numbers because they are built on the same line and platform, then you start to see something different.

Production quantity matters and has a direct impact on quality. It also affects how many complaints you see because there are more voices out there.

Look at the Lexus example. They score near the top. But they have relatively low production numbers and higher price points. Move to Toyota which has much higher production numbers (more in-line with Chrysler) and guess what? The numbers are worse. Toyota rates at 102. That is a perfect example of what higher production but lower price points does.

Is this better than Chrysler/Jeep? Yes. Is it some light-year leap from them? No. 102 problems per 100 vs 118 per 100 is not a huge jump. It IS a difference to be sure, but it's not overwhelmingly eyebrow-raising.

You need to compare ALL of these variables carefully. There's room for improvement of course. There always is. But your assessment that there's a ridiculous quality issue is not really hitting the mark when you factor all of this in.
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  #140  
Old 01-22-2014, 05:09 PM
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Re: Pay close attention on that walkthrough!!

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Originally Posted by Peter_K View Post
Jeep makes more than half that amount of vehicles in one model only. Add all models together and they far outstrip the Lexus production figures. Plus, if you consider the fact that you really need to a add certain Dodge and Chrysler vehicles to these numbers because they are built on the same line and platform, then you start to see something different.

Production quantity matters and has a direct impact on quality. It also affects how many complaints you see because there are more voices out there.
Your reasoning is flawed.

First of all, sources like JD Power account for bias in sample size. Thats why its problems per 100 cars, the results are spread out over the number of vehicles surveyed. So whether or not there are more Jeeps on the road than Lexus vehicles is meaningless. The same is true of CR surveys.

is there the potential for bias? Sure...but the result has been consistent for many years, its not like one year Jeep has dropped...

Look at the winners in a lot of these categories, they are VERY high volume vehicles.

Top Rated Cars - Car, Truck, SUV Rankings - 2013 Initial Quality Study

Many of the winners on that list are manufactured in much higher quantity than the GC. So...how are they able to build vehicles their owners are happier with if we are to excuse Jeep's poor performance because they build a lot of them?

JD Power does have a 3 year dependability study. Jeep is rated 4th from the bottom (worst) with 29 manufacturers rated higher. Here it is:

http://autos.jdpower.com/ratings/dep...ss-release.htm



The interesting thing will be to see this next year. This is looking at 2010 model year vehicles, next year they will poll WK2 owners. Will they go up? We'll see.

We can pull 2010 (pre-WK2) IQS numbers. Here they are:



Here is 2013 as a comparison:



As you can see, Jeep has improved but remember the 2013 IQS is 2013 models, not the problematic 2014. I expect IQS in 2014 for Jeep to drop substantially. Look at Ford...near the top in 2010...near the bottom in 2013. Why? MyFordTouch.

Regardless of what you say my implication is NOT that Jeep is headed in the wrong directions. The disastrous launch of the 2014 was a step backwards...but backwards steps happen.

Quote:
Look at the Lexus example. They score near the top. But they have relatively low production numbers and higher price points. Move to Toyota which has much higher production numbers (more in-line with Chrysler) and guess what? The numbers are worse. Toyota rates at 102. That is a perfect example of what higher production but lower price points does.
But again, the sample sizes polled by JD Power and the data collected are adjusted to account for differences in production figures. We can infer from these results that on the whole Lexus customers are happier with their vehicles at new than Toyota owners.

What is interesting is that Chrysler is rated significantly higher than Jeep...which is rated significantly higher than Dodge and Ram. Inconsistency across the line.

Actually Toyota produces FAR FAR more cars than Chrysler. Toyota is the worlds #1-#2 automaker depending on the year. In the US Toyota outsells Chrysler by a wide, wide margin.

Quote:
Is this better than Chrysler/Jeep? Yes. Is it some light-year leap from them? No. 102 problems per 100 vs 118 per 100 is not a huge jump. It IS a difference to be sure, but it's not overwhelmingly eyebrow-raising.
This is where you don't understand the reality of this difference. 102 vs 118 is a significant difference. That means that survey respondents identified 16 more problems per 100 cars for Jeep vs Toyota. Thats means owners identified nearly 16% more problems with Jeep vehicles than Toyota owners. Thats not a small figure.

To put it in perspective, if we have 10,000 cars...thats 1,600 more problems identified with Jeep vs Toyota. Now, these aren't necessarily reliability things, its 1,600 more things those Jeep owners did not like vs Toyota owners.

Quote:
But your assessment that there's a ridiculous quality issue is not really hitting the mark when you factor all of this in.
You're the one saying ridiculous, not me. All I have ever said is that Jeep has a QC issue when compared with many other brands, and if they really want to take on their competition, especially in the luxury market, they must improve.

One of the biggest issues are dealers. See the attached JD Power Dealer Satisfaction survey from 2012. Jeep is dead last amongst mainstream brands a score of 618/1000:



Again remember...they want to compete with luxury brands. Look at the luxury ratings and their scores:



They must improve. You accuse me of making stuff up, but show me something that refutes that. All this talking about margins of error is just an attempt to explain away what we see here. When we look overall at the fact that:

1. Jeep performs below average and below many other nameplates in IQS and has consistently for years
2. Jeep performs below average and below many other nameplates (all but 4) in VDS and has consistently for years
3. Jeep performs below average and below many other nameplates in CR surveys and has consistently for years
4. Jeep performs below average and last or near last in dealer satisfaction...and has consistently for years.
5. There are a lot of threads and posts here and on other Jeep forums that discuss both serious and less serious failures and quality problems.
6. There is no published survey or rating from any source that shows that Jeep satisfaction, reliability, or dealer satisfaction is even approaching average, let alone above average.

You can explain it away with margins of errors all you want and discuss sample sizes and whatever...but the preponderance of the evidence is that Jeep quality, reliability and dealer satisfaction are poorer than many other brands. Short of saying that all of these outlets have some vendetta out against Jeep and are falsifying this data...there is no logical argument to refute that.
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  #141  
Old 01-22-2014, 06:07 PM
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Without getting back into the argument of Jeep vs. the rest of the world.

I'm a manufacturing person, my engineering degree is in manufacturing. My company is dedicated to manufacturing.

So if the members of this forum learn one single fact from this discussion it's the following :

HIGH VOLUME MANUFACTURING DOES NOT MEAN LOW QUALITY.

On the contrary - the higher the volumes the shorter the cycle time the quicker the learning.

If anyone wants to vet my claims, please google lean manufacturing or six sigma and look at the statistical explanations.

And by the way all the "low volume" brands that are high quality are riding on the shoulders of high volume divisions
Lexus - uses Toyota parts
Porsche - Audi and VW parts and processes

Now old production lines and being a company that almost died financially a few years ago combined with a new hit platform - this is a quality killer.
Simple things like correcting bad lighting showed 5%-10% improvement in quality, in industrial engineering studies.

Now it is our job as consumers to report every single problem so that Jeep can fix it.
And it is Jeep's job to fix the process so they don't happen again.
I'm sure that Jeep can improve it or get someone to help them improve it.

OK Now bicker on :-)
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  #142  
Old 01-22-2014, 06:15 PM
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Re: Pay close attention on that walkthrough!!

Well said...
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Old 01-22-2014, 06:20 PM
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Nominate Re: Pay close attention on that walkthrough!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SW03ES View Post
Your reasoning is flawed.

First of all, sources like JD Power account for bias in sample size. Thats why its problems per 100 cars, the results are spread out over the number of vehicles surveyed. So whether or not there are more Jeeps on the road than Lexus vehicles is meaningless. The same is true of CR surveys.

is there the potential for bias? Sure...but the result has been consistent for many years, its not like one year Jeep has dropped...

Look at the winners in a lot of these categories, they are VERY high volume vehicles.

Top Rated Cars - Car, Truck, SUV Rankings - 2013 Initial Quality Study

Many of the winners on that list are manufactured in much higher quantity than the GC. So...how are they able to build vehicles their owners are happier with if we are to excuse Jeep's poor performance because they build a lot of them?

JD Power does have a 3 year dependability study. Jeep is rated 4th from the bottom (worst) with 29 manufacturers rated higher. Here it is:

2013 Vehicle Dependability Study | J.D. Power



The interesting thing will be to see this next year. This is looking at 2010 model year vehicles, next year they will poll WK2 owners. Will they go up? We'll see.

We can pull 2010 (pre-WK2) IQS numbers. Here they are:



Here is 2013 as a comparison:



As you can see, Jeep has improved but remember the 2013 IQS is 2013 models, not the problematic 2014. I expect IQS in 2014 for Jeep to drop substantially. Look at Ford...near the top in 2010...near the bottom in 2013. Why? MyFordTouch.

Regardless of what you say my implication is NOT that Jeep is headed in the wrong directions. The disastrous launch of the 2014 was a step backwards...but backwards steps happen.



But again, the sample sizes polled by JD Power and the data collected are adjusted to account for differences in production figures. We can infer from these results that on the whole Lexus customers are happier with their vehicles at new than Toyota owners.

What is interesting is that Chrysler is rated significantly higher than Jeep...which is rated significantly higher than Dodge and Ram. Inconsistency across the line.

Actually Toyota produces FAR FAR more cars than Chrysler. Toyota is the worlds #1-#2 automaker depending on the year. In the US Toyota outsells Chrysler by a wide, wide margin.



This is where you don't understand the reality of this difference. 102 vs 118 is a significant difference. That means that survey respondents identified 16 more problems per 100 cars for Jeep vs Toyota. Thats means owners identified nearly 16% more problems with Jeep vehicles than Toyota owners. Thats not a small figure.

To put it in perspective, if we have 10,000 cars...thats 1,600 more problems identified with Jeep vs Toyota. Now, these aren't necessarily reliability things, its 1,600 more things those Jeep owners did not like vs Toyota owners.



You're the one saying ridiculous, not me. All I have ever said is that Jeep has a QC issue when compared with many other brands, and if they really want to take on their competition, especially in the luxury market, they must improve.

One of the biggest issues are dealers. See the attached JD Power Dealer Satisfaction survey from 2012. Jeep is dead last amongst mainstream brands a score of 618/1000:



Again remember...they want to compete with luxury brands. Look at the luxury ratings and their scores:



They must improve. You accuse me of making stuff up, but show me something that refutes that. All this talking about margins of error is just an attempt to explain away what we see here. When we look overall at the fact that:

1. Jeep performs below average and below many other nameplates in IQS and has consistently for years
2. Jeep performs below average and below many other nameplates (all but 4) in VDS and has consistently for years
3. Jeep performs below average and below many other nameplates in CR surveys and has consistently for years
4. Jeep performs below average and last or near last in dealer satisfaction...and has consistently for years.
5. There are a lot of threads and posts here and on other Jeep forums that discuss both serious and less serious failures and quality problems.
6. There is no published survey or rating from any source that shows that Jeep satisfaction, reliability, or dealer satisfaction is even approaching average, let alone above average.

You can explain it away with margins of errors all you want and discuss sample sizes and whatever...but the preponderance of the evidence is that Jeep quality, reliability and dealer satisfaction are poorer than many other brands. Short of saying that all of these outlets have some vendetta out against Jeep and are falsifying this data...there is no logical argument to refute that.
Well done. Thank you.
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Old 01-22-2014, 07:02 PM
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This thread seems to generated in to a bashing session on quality and industry reports, which i do not take any notice of
I saw the other day that VW have admitted that their satisfactory stats from customers may have been tampered with and therefor may not be totally reliable
Para phrasing here


I was hopping that we would generate some sort of check list for new buyers to down load and be armed with when taking delivery
Check list based on what past owners have found when taking delivery
This type of check helps to take the emotion of the delivery and gives good advice and reference to check prior to taking delivery.

Just my 2 cents worth
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