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  #145  
Old 01-23-2014, 06:59 AM
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Re: Pay close attention on that walkthrough!!

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Originally Posted by MAXGroup View Post

Now it is our job as consumers to report every single problem so that Jeep can fix it.
And it is Jeep's job to fix the process so they don't happen again.
Exactly...and I feel I've done my part at least.

Let's hope Jeep continues to find fixes for the most common issues customers have had with the 2014 GC...the next big improvement Chrysler needs to make is to improve their dealership network by bringing up to todays standards.

...still waiting on a fix from Jeep when it comes to issues with the rear self-leveling shocks. This has been a known issue since 2011.

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  #146  
Old 01-23-2014, 08:44 AM
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Re: Pay close attention on that walkthrough!!

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Originally Posted by GCLimited View Post
...the next big improvement Chrysler needs to make is to improve their dealership network by bringing up to todays standards.
YEP... wayyy too much inconsistency with the quality of the dealerships (mostly on the incompetent side) and the amenities each offers.

Hell, even Hyundai when you buy a Genisis or Equus will come and pick the car up, drop off a loaner and bring it back to you when it needs service. That's realizing that you have a couple of cars you're trying to go up market with and owners expect certain amenities.
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  #147  
Old 01-23-2014, 09:51 AM
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Re: Pay close attention on that walkthrough!!

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Originally Posted by TurboRush View Post
Hell, even Hyundai when you buy a Genisis or Equus will come and pick the car up, drop off a loaner and bring it back to you when it needs service. That's realizing that you have a couple of cars you're trying to go up market with and owners expect certain amenities.
And I think this is a great approach for Jeep.

One of the problems with improving dealerships is that all the dealerships are franchises, so Chrysler doesn't own them. They can require certain standards, but the cost of those upgrades ultimately is going to largely fall to the dealers. They have a lot of loud franchisees in their ears who have been in business for generations saying they don't want to make upgrades just to service a few upper end models.

Hyundai's solution to the same problem I think is a great one for Chrysler...keep upper end Jeep and Chrysler owners out of the dealerships entirely...then who cares what they look like?
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  #148  
Old 01-23-2014, 10:50 AM
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Re: Pay close attention on that walkthrough!!

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Originally Posted by SW03ES View Post
Snip
Lol, someone who gains his "statistics" from browsing a forum and relying on silly charts from "sources" like JD Power. Such incontrovertible evidence.

Ever see a year to year JD Power chart? The margin of error and comparative stats are laughable..




So in one model year change, with some manufacturers spanning dozens of car models, producing some massive swings in these numbers you hold so much weight in is logical eh?

Ford goes from the top 5 to the bottom 1/3 in one year? Mazda goes from the bottom half to the top in one year? Man, those are some DYNAMIC car companies we have here...

With simple margin of error you could change the order of half that chart on it's head.
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  #149  
Old 01-23-2014, 11:21 AM
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Re: Pay close attention on that walkthrough!!

looking at JD power etc, these numbers are directional, not absolutes. you cannot really say jeep as a brand with stuff built in different segments and facilities are all the same quality but it will give a consumer an idea.

What do I see from above, Jeep is in the bottom half in both (along with mini/dodge). Lexus is in the top half in both (as with MB and infiniti), ford had a stinker (mytouch implementation?) and both Mazda and toyota went up (2010 was likely the floor mat effect for toyota).

Does it tell the whole story, probably not, but it can help you make an informed decision.

My 1.2 issues were, misaligned hood on drivers side, a rattle at the back of the sunroof, a dash alignment issue. (lets call that 3), others have bigger issues.
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  #150  
Old 01-23-2014, 12:02 PM
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Re: Pay close attention on that walkthrough!!

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Originally Posted by Raven View Post
Lol, someone who gains his "statistics" from browsing a forum and relying on silly charts from "sources" like JD Power. Such incontrovertible evidence.

Ever see a year to year JD Power chart? The margin of error and comparative stats are laughable..




So in one model year change, with some manufacturers spanning dozens of car models, producing some massive swings in these numbers you hold so much weight in is logical eh?

Ford goes from the top 5 to the bottom 1/3 in one year? Mazda goes from the bottom half to the top in one year? Man, those are some DYNAMIC car companies we have here...

With simple margin of error you could change the order of half that chart on it's head.

This is a Jeep forum. Jeep ranked poorly in 2010 and 2011. Trend is the same for 2012, and 2013. I'm sorry - what was your point?
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  #151  
Old 01-23-2014, 12:59 PM
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Re: Pay close attention on that walkthrough!!

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Originally Posted by SW03ES View Post
Your reasoning is flawed.

First of all, sources like JD Power account for bias in sample size. Thats why its problems per 100 cars, the results are spread out over the number of vehicles surveyed. So whether or not there are more Jeeps on the road than Lexus vehicles is meaningless. The same is true of CR surveys.

is there the potential for bias? Sure...but the result has been consistent for many years, its not like one year Jeep has dropped...
You're absolutely incorrect in this assertion. You cannot remove sample size bias from studies such as this because they cannot rule out the base causes of quality issues. You can normalize data for it's size, but you cannot correct for the underlying data bias based on more or less units. That's well known. As an example, if I make 10 items, and 1 has an issue, that does NOT scale to 100 items having 10 issues linearly like that, especially with manufacturing.

Quote:
Look at the winners in a lot of these categories, they are VERY high volume vehicles.

Top Rated Cars - Car, Truck, SUV Rankings - 2013 Initial Quality Study

Many of the winners on that list are manufactured in much higher quantity than the GC. So...how are they able to build vehicles their owners are happier with if we are to excuse Jeep's poor performance because they build a lot of them?
Ahhh. But again, you look only superficially at the data and not at the whole picture. Notice something about those vehicles? Some are low-volume, but one thing that stands out is that they are all SIMPLER vehicles. Unless you're just a completely hashed-out manufacturing firm, simpler will almost always result in better. More complicated will almost always result in more problems. That's pretty universal. And consumers are demanding more features (more complication) at the same price points.

Quote:
JD Power does have a 3 year dependability study. Jeep is rated 4th from the bottom (worst) with 29 manufacturers rated higher. Here it is:

The interesting thing will be to see this next year. This is looking at 2010 model year vehicles, next year they will poll WK2 owners. Will they go up? We'll see.
And I agree. There ARE areas of improvement that can be made with Jeep. However, as I've always said, what I DON'T agree with is you're extremist point of view. You make way too many assertions that are in fact false in order to make your point.

Quote:
As you can see, Jeep has improved but remember the 2013 IQS is 2013 models, not the problematic 2014. I expect IQS in 2014 for Jeep to drop substantially. Look at Ford...near the top in 2010...near the bottom in 2013. Why? MyFordTouch.
Absolutely. And for some reason you don't seem to understand that EVERY SINGLE MANUFACTURER sees a dip and a decrease in quality when they introduce a redesign or new model. But you're pointing to the 2014 GC in a way as to imply that Jeep is somehow "different" in this respect. It's having issues, but nobody else would with all the new things. That's simply a very false implication.

Quote:
Regardless of what you say my implication is NOT that Jeep is headed in the wrong directions. The disastrous launch of the 2014 was a step backwards...but backwards steps happen.
And the only part here I'm taking exception to is your extremist (and drama-laden) use of the word "disastrous." What is disastrous to you? Sales are through the roof. Yes, there are issues (a greater majority of which are software...get used to that. With all the manufacturers. People are demanding doo-dads. Doo-dads are often software-driven. Given the marketing and sales cycles being as slim as they are, if you go for something new you're going to be a beta tester. I don't like it, but I accept that as reality. Unless people are willing to pay more or wait longer, this is how this is going to work).

Quote:
But again, the sample sizes polled by JD Power and the data collected are adjusted to account for differences in production figures. We can infer from these results that on the whole Lexus customers are happier with their vehicles at new than Toyota owners.
No sir. They are not adjusted for production figures. They are normalized into the data set for sample size, but in no way account for production figures. For example, if a manufacturer is on the list and makes 10 cars, and all of which do well, JD powers will give them a 100. If another manufacturer makes 100 cars and 10 have a problem, they get a 90. This is rough as they do some other scaling against the industry as a whole but there are NOT adjusted to production volume as you think they are. They cannot--there's no real valid way to do that which takes into account what effects larger-scale production has on these variables.

Quote:
What is interesting is that Chrysler is rated significantly higher than Jeep...which is rated significantly higher than Dodge and Ram. Inconsistency across the line.
Ah, another misunderstanding and what I was trying to say originally. You are using EXACT numbers...in other words, you think a rating of 112 is hugely different from 118, as an example. It's not. That's within sample set variation error. Which is why when you use the IQS you have to understand that ratings within 5-10 points of each other are relatively meaningless as a whole. That's simple statistics. It's not made up for the sake of this argument. The "pack" of ratings in the 102-122 range is, to anyone who understands that in sample sets the exact number is meaningless, all "average" looking at the range.

Quote:
Actually Toyota produces FAR FAR more cars than Chrysler. Toyota is the worlds #1-#2 automaker depending on the year. In the US Toyota outsells Chrysler by a wide, wide margin.
I agree. And I agree that by the numbers Toyota is doing better than Chrysler. But, not by a huge margin.

Quote:
This is where you don't understand the reality of this difference. 102 vs 118 is a significant difference. That means that survey respondents identified 16 more problems per 100 cars for Jeep vs Toyota. Thats means owners identified nearly 16% more problems with Jeep vehicles than Toyota owners. Thats not a small figure.
Actually 102 vs 118 is a 13.5% difference, not 16%. By the nuimbers, yes...16 more problems PER 100 CARS, not on an individual vehicle. You have to scale and factor for that. Is it worse? Sure. Is it so much worse? No. And the argument was never as to whether Jeep quality could improve. It was all about the extreme language you tend to use.

Plus, one thing not being addressed here is that if we look at JEEP...the vehicle assortment is different than with Toyota. Toyota has a LOT of simpler vehicles (easier to build, easier to make, etc). Jeep has a line dominated by 4wd vehicles and SUVs. More complexity (drivetrain, etc) generally means more issues. Again, universally. With Toyota, their overall quality numbers get a nice boost from these other models.

What would be fascinating would be a better comparison (if it can be found) between only the models Toyota makes which are like/kind (4WD and/or SUV-type) and the Jeep line. That would likely be a better comparison and I'm willing to bet it would be a closer call.

Quote:
You're the one saying ridiculous, not me. All I have ever said is that Jeep has a QC issue when compared with many other brands, and if they really want to take on their competition, especially in the luxury market, they must improve.
Well, perhaps we should change this to an argument about HOW Jeep could improve said quality, for a given market. I can tell you several ways:

1) Split a separate luxury brand off from Jeep. Let's call it Peej.
2) Vehicles are built at a lower rate (naturally, since they're going to be more expensive with fewer buyers).
3) Accept the increase in expense for 100% inspection, improvements in the equipment, and large capex additions.
4) Cut the trim lines. Only a couple of trims with any kind of major differences (or more with only minor ones). Right now, the GC runs the entire spectrum, from base SUV to "luxury" segment upper tier (attempted). All built on the same line, at the same rate as the others, and without additional inspection or QC for those upper models (hard to do on the same line without incurring overall expense).


Quote:
One of the biggest issues are dealers. See the attached JD Power Dealer Satisfaction survey from 2012. Jeep is dead last amongst mainstream brands a score of 618/1000:
I won't argue that. I agree about the dealer issues. But I have seen improvements in this area. And I'm aware it takes a while with that kind of thing.

Quote:
Again remember...they want to compete with luxury brands. Look at the luxury ratings and their scores:
Actually, I'm not sure that's the goal. I believe they are adding more "luxury items" to mainstream mass-produced vehicles, but I'm not sure the intended goal is to turn Jeep into a luxury brand. It generally isn't effective (which is why Toyota created Lexus, Nissan made Infiniti, and so forth). Consumers in the mainstream are demanding more, so they are getting more, but costs need to be held down or the market segment shrinks dramatically. I suspect what you're really seeing is that infiltration of luxury items into the mainstream, rather than a true move to create a luxury brand. As such, if you bought Jeep thinking you were getting a true boutique luxury vehicle that's unfortunate as it would be a bit of a leap to get there.

Quote:
They must improve. You accuse me of making stuff up, but show me something that refutes that.
You do tend to make a lot of assertions with extreme language that aren't necessarily rotely true. "Disastrous launch of the 2014"...meh...drama. Continuing sales don't indicate it was a disaster. While there are people complaining about issues, you seem to imply every single person who bought a 2014 is hating their vehicle and their experience. That's overkill and simply dramatic rhetoric.

"They must improve." Well, they SHOULD in a number of ways. But...they're okay right now. Of course I wish I was buying a luxury vehicle with all the doo-dads I got for the price I got. But I recognized something when I bought it. (1) It was a major refresh. (2) It's NOT a luxury brand. It's not a boutique vehicle. If it were, it would cost a lot more than it does.

Must improve isn't going to be based on number of issues. It'll be based on sales and wanting to continue them. And, having issues doesn't always equate to lowered sales. People buy cool things that have sucky problems all the time, and continue to buy them. Look at the iPhone. It has issues (some serious quality issues too). It has defects. It has DESIGN issues. Yet, people still buy them in record numbers.

This is called being a REALIST as to what actually drives purchases.

Quote:
You can explain it away with margins of errors all you want and discuss sample sizes and whatever...but the preponderance of the evidence is that Jeep quality, reliability and dealer satisfaction are poorer than many other brands. Short of saying that all of these outlets have some vendetta out against Jeep and are falsifying this data...there is no logical argument to refute that.
Meh. They're better than many others too. They're pretty average in this respect. I don't like saying that but I won't use your extremist language. Tallying it all up AND looking at margins of error gives me "in the average range." I'm not saying that's stellar. I'm saying that's what it is.

Tell me...why did you buy a Jeep (if you actually did) when, historically in your mindset, Jeep was so "horrible?" That does kind of sound like you're not real intuitive in your decision-making. According to you, the preponderance of evidence is that Jeep is horrible, unreliable, terrible, "disastrous" and has been for years going way back. So...er...you bought it so you can bitch? I bought mine knowing full well that it wasn't a Lexus. But, I didn't want a Lexus (they're rather boring to me). I knew Jeep was more or less average in quality, and I also knew it was a major refresh year, so I expected some issues. I got some. They also got corrected. And I believe I got more vehicle for my money in the end than I would have for the same price with these "luxury" brands.
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  #152  
Old 01-23-2014, 01:16 PM
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Re: Pay close attention on that walkthrough!!

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Originally Posted by jdshaw View Post
This is a Jeep forum. Jeep ranked poorly in 2010 and 2011. Trend is the same for 2012, and 2013. I'm sorry - what was your point?
Here's where I'm going to explain why using that "mean" average doesn't work here. Let's say I have a range of vehicle manufacturers with a rank. If I have one manufacturer with a rank that is WAY better (or WAY worse), that skews the ranking towards that side. This is why people use median averages when they look at statistical spreads -- it factors out the skew caused by an outlier.

In the example given, if you notice...most of the manufacturers cluster in the 100-120 range. The outliers (and hey, good for them) sit on the low side in the 70-85 range. That's only a few manufacturers out of the pack. Generally, high-end manufacturers (with Honda slipping in there--good for them). When you take the MEAN average, it skews things downward. When you take the MEDIAN average which accounts for outliers, Jeep did not do poorly in both years at all. It was average WITH RESPECT TO THE MAJORITY OF THE MANUFACTURERS. Understand that. I'd love it if they ALL were down closer to zero problems, but the MAJORITY of them are in the 100+ range.

Now, if you want to say EVERYONE BUT THOSE 4-5 manufacturers is doing poorly and use that as your benchmark, then...you have a leg to stand on with that. Practically EVERYONE needs to improve in that scenario. But singling Jeep out of the pack by utilizing that outlier skew...eh, not really a good comparison. As I've said, compared to the MAJORITY of manufacturers, Jeep's sitting at "pretty average" in that respect.
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  #153  
Old 01-23-2014, 01:17 PM
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Re: Pay close attention on that walkthrough!!

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Originally Posted by fwdjeep View Post
I was hopping that we would generate some sort of check list for new buyers to down load and be armed with when taking delivery
Check list based on what past owners have found when taking delivery
This type of check helps to take the emotion of the delivery and gives good advice and reference to check prior to taking delivery.

Just my 2 cents worth
There is a great checklist that has been made. I took a copy with me when I picked up my new Jeep. The problem, is that after taking a half hour and barely making a dent in the checklist, I wound up just doing a visual inspection and taking the Jeep home. It took a day to go thru the whole checklist at home.
Here is the page with the checklist. Hope this helps. It is post number 8036

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  #154  
Old 01-23-2014, 01:25 PM
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Re: Pay close attention on that walkthrough!!

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Originally Posted by Shannon View Post
There is a great checklist that has been made. I took a copy with me when I picked up my new Jeep. The problem, is that after taking a half hour and barely making a dent in the checklist, I wound up just doing a visual inspection and taking the Jeep home. It took a day to go thru the whole checklist at home.
Here is the page with the checklist. Hope this helps. It is post number 8036

2014 diesel production
This is my edited and downsized version of the list Shannon mentioned:

1. Do NOT wash or detail. My detailer specifically requested this since they will be prepping and applying paint sealant.
2. No dealer decals/badges and no holes for front license plate.
3. Hard copy of build sheet.
4. Hard copy of vehicle's PDI sheet/checklist.
5. Hard copy of diagnostic report printout from dealer's service department.
6. Inspect paint for any defects or imperfections (especially on the doors) in bright sunlight if possible. Check for dust specs under the paint. Check for transfer marks which will not wipe away.
7. Inspect chrome pieces for scratches and proper alignment with the next trim piece.
8. Check the spacing between the rear lift gate and the vehicle body.
9. Check the spacing of the taillight sections and the lift gate for equal spacing on the left and right side.
10. Check the rear lift gate handle cover for being bowed out.
11. Check alignment of hood and all doors.
12. Check the fender flares for proper mounting, alignment or bulging.
13. Check front and back lights for interior condensation.
14. Carefully inspect stitching on dash and all upholstery.
15. Check alignment of console components.
16. Check to see if a double press of the hatch button on the key FOB opens the rear hatch.
17. Two sets of keys and copy of key number.

Oh crap, almost forgot... CHECK FUEL DOOR FOR CORRECT COLOR!
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  #155  
Old 01-23-2014, 08:20 PM
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Re: Pay close attention on that walkthrough!!

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Originally Posted by neiltb View Post
looking at JD power etc, these numbers are directional, not absolutes. you cannot really say jeep as a brand with stuff built in different segments and facilities are all the same quality but it will give a consumer an idea.
Exactly. Its one piece of an overall picture that shows where Jeep is as a brand compared to other brands. Again...there is not one source of data that contradicts the position that Jeep satisfaction is overall below average and is inferior to many other brands. We can argue semantics about what sources and their margins of error...but the issue is that overwhelmingly all of these sources of data support the idea that Jeep has work to do. Thats all I've ever said.

Went to the DC Auto Show today. They have a nice Granite summit...drivers side fender trim is on crooked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_K
Tell me...why did you buy a Jeep (if you actually did) when, historically in your mindset, Jeep was so "horrible?" That does kind of sound like you're not real intuitive in your decision-making. According to you, the preponderance of evidence is that Jeep is horrible, unreliable, terrible, "disastrous" and has been for years going way back. So...er...you bought it so you can bitch?
I'm not going to respond to the rest of your post. I've spent a lot of time compiling and analyzing data sources to prove my point when no other response has been offered that contradicts what I'm saying other than the absurd notion that data from any of these sources that shows Jeep is not doing as well as we would like in these areas...data from THE authorities in compiling such data in the automotive industry is somehow faulty. Why don't you post some data that shows Jeep is above average in any of these areas? You can't because there isn't any.

You keep saying that I think Jeeps "horrible" or "terrible" or whatever and you are putting words in my mouth. I have never said anything of the sort. I have said that these production mistakes are inexcusable...I have said that build quality, reliability, and dealer service need to improve. That is all I have ever said...read my posts. I have said repeatedly that despite my problems I love my Jeep.

The launch of the 2014 was a disaster, there were all kind of issues with uConnect and electrical issues leading to Jeep even being taken off the CR Recommended list...those issues have mostly been solved. The vehicle is not a disaster...the launch was a disaster because the vehicle wasn't ready to be launched.

I bought the Jeep because its a great vehicle, its great looking, it drives great, its very capable, and its a great value for the money. I was expecting less reliability than I was accustomed to...but my vehicle has had far more warranty issues than I expected. Like I said, something like 27 warranty failures in two years. Thats pretty terrible...I've had cars upwards of 200k miles that have never had anywhere near that many failures. Despite that as I have said...I still like the vehicle a lot and believe it or not...I like it so much I would probably buy another.

Just because we may be critical doesn't mean we "hate" the brand as you seem to be incapable of understanding. In order to be critical of something and want to see improvement, you have to have some level of interest. If you had the issues a lot of us have had, you'd be singing a different tune. Your Jeep is new...I was a raving fan taking on detractors when mine was new too. Come talk to me in 2 years.
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  #156  
Old 01-23-2014, 11:33 PM
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Raven is on a distinguished road
Re: Pay close attention on that walkthrough!!

Taken off the consumer reports recommended list (gasp)

=

dis·as·ter - a calamitous event, especially one occurring suddenly and causing great loss of life, damage, or hardship, as a flood, or airplane crash.

=

I think I will call you Mr. Hyperbole
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