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  #13  
Old 10-27-2010, 10:54 AM
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Re: "Poor" rating for emergency maneuver

Ground Clearance is 8.7" and I think default clearance for QL is the same. Not sure if you mean something else by ride height.
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  #14  
Old 10-27-2010, 11:06 AM
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Re: "Poor" rating for emergency maneuver

Quote:
Originally Posted by moosehead View Post
^this, +1

Rather than: "it's the tires". No doubt the 20's with sticky rubber would do better on evasive maneuvers, either that or at speed they would pole vault the SUV into a rollover.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/survey...=18&type=CSTAS

I'm more concerned with CR's recent quality ratings which still has Chrysler and Jeep at or near the bottom. That said, I'm already betting that the 2011 JGC can change that rating.
I think a lot of their ratings are based on "brand history"...

IIRC when you drill down those ratings are based on the 2008 or 2009 which we can all agree were disproportionately 'quality challanged'....

Definately not enough data yet to do a realistic quality eval on the the WK2....
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Old 10-27-2010, 11:14 AM
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Re: "Poor" rating for emergency maneuver

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Originally Posted by Lingohocken View Post
Well, the tire they used is what comes with the truck, after all, so they can hardly be faulted.


Hopefully the V8 they're currently testing is an Overland with different (20") tires. (The earlier tester was the Laredo 4WD V6 with Michelin Latitude Tour P265/60R18 109T.)

True the tires as tested were what the truck was equipped with. The Michelin Latitude is part of the off road adventure package. If you are going to test with optional equipment, why not the 20" wheels and tires? The stiffer shorter sidewalls will make a very definite difference.

All I was saying is don't down rate a vehicle because of tire shortcomings. We all know the manufacturer will use the cheapest tire, although a large namebrand for marketing and cost cutting at the same time. Yes I know that the Michelin latitude is rated #1 in it's class, but that class isn't performance handling.

I use Michelin's on my autocross car and there are different grades within the same name and size tire believe it or not. The Pilot Sport PSII is used for factory stock class SCCA and NASA road racing on Porsche and BMW. The tires for this appear the same and have the same name, but the letter code at the end of the size denote a totally different compound. The different compound is used on these particular vehicles stock to make it legal for competition. In the end though they are all PSII Michelins but there are 3 different compounds. The Mercedes gets a compound for softer and quieter ride yet it's the same name tire. The manufacturer "can" give specs for the tire they want or ask for the cheapest thing in that particular type.

Also tire pressures play a major roll in it's performance according to track temps and conditions. 2 PSI can make a night and day difference depending on the day, track temp, humidity etc.

Just because you are testing with the oem tire for an honest review doesn't mean you should ignore adjusting pressures for conditions. If you want to test for the ragged edge of performance (i.e. skidpad or lane change) you should "adjust" the things which are oem available for adjustment to maximize potential. Not take a vehicle straight from the dealer with max pressure in the tires or recommended pressures and run it. Recommended pressures are for daily driving year round ( a large varying envelope), not for maxing out the potential of the vehicle on a set day.
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  #16  
Old 10-27-2010, 11:25 AM
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Re: "Poor" rating for emergency maneuver

CR is not a track magazine and it test vehicles based on how the average owner would tend to drive them. That would be with the OEM tires and I doubt many folks are going to adjust their tire pressure based on "conditions." I am as loyal to the Jeep name plate as anyone you will find, but even I am willing to admit that evasive maneuvers are hardly the strong suit of a stock Grand Cherokee. Face it folks, there's a reason a lot of guys change out the springs, shocks, struts, sway bars, end links, wheels and tires on these things. For the average person buying and driving a WK2, it is probably a good thing that CR is telling them it doesn't handle like a sports car.
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  #17  
Old 10-27-2010, 11:26 AM
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Re: "Poor" rating for emergency maneuver

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Originally Posted by chucksc View Post
Definately not enough data yet to do a realistic quality eval on the the WK2....
They say that in their report. The only reliability ratings they have for the GC is pre-2011.
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  #18  
Old 10-27-2010, 11:59 AM
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Re: "Poor" rating for emergency maneuver

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Originally Posted by parker View Post
True the tires as tested were what the truck was equipped with. The Michelin Latitude is part of the off road adventure package. If you are going to test with optional equipment, why not the 20" wheels and tires? The stiffer shorter sidewalls will make a very definite difference.

All I was saying is don't down rate a vehicle because of tire shortcomings. We all know the manufacturer will use the cheapest tire, although a large namebrand for marketing and cost cutting at the same time. Yes I know that the Michelin latitude is rated #1 in it's class, but that class isn't performance handling.

I use Michelin's on my autocross car and there are different grades within the same name and size tire believe it or not. The Pilot Sport PSII is used for factory stock class SCCA and NASA road racing on Porsche and BMW. The tires for this appear the same and have the same name, but the letter code at the end of the size denote a totally different compound. The different compound is used on these particular vehicles stock to make it legal for competition. In the end though they are all PSII Michelins but there are 3 different compounds. The Mercedes gets a compound for softer and quieter ride yet it's the same name tire. The manufacturer "can" give specs for the tire they want or ask for the cheapest thing in that particular type.

Also tire pressures play a major roll in it's performance according to track temps and conditions. 2 PSI can make a night and day difference depending on the day, track temp, humidity etc.

Just because you are testing with the oem tire for an honest review doesn't mean you should ignore adjusting pressures for conditions. If you want to test for the ragged edge of performance (i.e. skidpad or lane change) you should "adjust" the things which are oem available for adjustment to maximize potential. Not take a vehicle straight from the dealer with max pressure in the tires or recommended pressures and run it. Recommended pressures are for daily driving year round ( a large varying envelope), not for maxing out the potential of the vehicle on a set day.
Our firm has done independent consumer product testing (not of cars) for decades. When we encounter something strangely "off," first thing we do is try to isolate the variable and see if it is readily fixable, then retest. Although we're strictly independent of manufacturers, we also contact them, unless they're hostile, to see if they can come up with an immediate solution; much of the time, they can. We then retest, then publish both our original and revised findings.

This way the public is fully and timely informed, yet the issue gets favorably resolved in the quickest possible manner. As for Consumers Union, they were started as a labor-union activity in the 1930s and have since then explicitly pushed for socialized medicine and the like, which is of course their right. But it also bespeaks of an us-vs.-them attitude towards companies, and may explain why they apparently go public with problems, leaving the manufacturers to scramble only after the testing process is completed, written up, edited and published. That means the problem can't be looked into until weeks later, although it does give CU the public appearance of being a tireless watchdog.
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Old 10-27-2010, 12:04 PM
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Re: "Poor" rating for emergency maneuver

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe in PA View Post
CR is not a track magazine and it test vehicles based on how the average owner would tend to drive them. That would be with the OEM tires and I doubt many folks are going to adjust their tire pressure based on "conditions." I am as loyal to the Jeep name plate as anyone you will find, but even I am willing to admit that evasive maneuvers are hardly the strong suit of a stock Grand Cherokee. Face it folks, there's a reason a lot of guys change out the springs, shocks, struts, sway bars, end links, wheels and tires on these things. For the average person buying and driving a WK2, it is probably a good thing that CR is telling them it doesn't handle like a sports car.
CR is telling them NOT TO BUY the vehicle. The fact is, in the last decade CR's recommendations have simply not stood the test of time. Read the CR online forums and you'll see that many long time CR readers are wary of anything CR says these days.

Look at former reviews, and it becomes clear that CR doesn't like Jeep. Never has, never will.
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  #20  
Old 10-27-2010, 12:24 PM
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Re: "Poor" rating for emergency maneuver

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Originally Posted by GlowingGhoul View Post
CR is telling them NOT TO BUY the vehicle. The fact is, in the last decade CR's recommendations have simply not stood the test of time. Read the CR online forums and you'll see that many long time CR readers are wary of anything CR says these days.

Look at formet reviews, and it becomes clear that CR doesn't like Jeep. Never has, never will.
No, CU did not tell readers not to buy the GC. It said it couldn't recommend it until the breakaway issue was improved. Huge difference, as most vehicles they test don't wind up being recommended, but very few are so poor that readers are told not to buy them.

Breakaway issue aside, the 2011 GC did quite nicely in their tests, even if those tests didn't include snow/mud/sand/offroad performance (sigh).
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  #21  
Old 10-27-2010, 12:26 PM
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Re: "Poor" rating for emergency maneuver

If I were looking to purchase a vehicle that handled exceptionally well, I wouldn't buy it either. Well not without the intention of upgrading a lot of the suspension parts. The WK2 is what it is; it ain't a sports car or even a great handling SUV. It could be made into such. No doubt if they come out with an SRT8 version of the WK2 it will handle exceptionally well. However pushing a stock 2011 WK2 to the absolute limits is probably not the brightest thing to do.
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  #22  
Old 10-27-2010, 03:04 PM
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Re: "Poor" rating for emergency maneuver

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Originally Posted by Joe in PA View Post
If I were looking to purchase a vehicle that handled exceptionally well, I wouldn't buy it either. Well not without the intention of upgrading a lot of the suspension parts. The WK2 is what it is; it ain't a sports car or even a great handling SUV.
I'd agree here. I don't know that I'd say it handled poorly, but it sure doesn't handle great. It feels solid, tracks well, and doesn't lose composure easily, but it doesn't give me the sense that I can yank it around a curvy road at high speeds. My Patriot gave me more confidence; in the GC I can't hold the same speeds on a freeway cloverleaf that I could before. No surprise- this thing is heavier with a higher center of gravity.

But then, if I wanted exceptional handling, an SUV would NOT have been on my shopping list. When you go with something that's offroad capable, you need to understand you're going to make sacrifices elsewhere.

As for CR, they're useless. Most of their ratings are based on their own biases and past history, not actual experience with the exact vehicle in question. It wasn't long ago they had to admit they've been padding Toyota's ratings due to their own feelings of reliability regarding the brand, even as Toyota was experiencing major quality problems. I can't take anything CR says seriously, even if they decide they love a vehicle I also enjoy. They just don't know cars.
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Old 10-27-2010, 04:20 PM
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Re: "Poor" rating for emergency maneuver



Hey guys, this is the link to the CR video on youtube. They show the lane change video towards the end. It's kinda scary but then again, as mentioned before, it's a freaking offroad capable SUV, not a Lotus.

Lesson learned: don't try to change lanes.. hit the brakes and hope your 5,000 lbs wont do too much damage.
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  #24  
Old 10-27-2010, 04:39 PM
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Re: "Poor" rating for emergency maneuver

I actually liked the fact that there is some oversteer. While most soccer moms don't know how to countersteer, some of us do. I would much rather have the rear end kick out a little and steer the car with throttle, than have the front just plow straight when I want it to go right....
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