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  #61  
Old 10-02-2012, 01:29 PM
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Re: Possible trade for a WK2 Hemi, need advice from hemi owners

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Originally Posted by ColdCase View Post
Ford can jack up the numbers at will with the stroke of a pen, and often have. Its called marketing, not engineering. As I've mentioned before, my neighbors 3.5 ecoboost is a POS gutless toy, useless off road. He will gladly trade up to a V8 Hemi.
I just test drove one a few weeks ago, it was faster than my v8 Jeep and was a ton smoother (not suspension smooth but drivetrain smooth). Maybe something is wrong with your neighbors, go check out the 1/4 mile times from stock ecoboost trucks. Drag racing isn't everything, but the truck is definitely faster than our Jeeps (Excluding the SRT)
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  #62  
Old 10-02-2012, 05:30 PM
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Re: Possible trade for a WK2 Hemi, need advice from hemi owners

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Originally Posted by Smooth1 View Post
The turbos are only on the V8. And the technology and life of the turbo systems they are using far exceed what they were able to achieve just a few years ago. Which brings me to my point again. They used a state of the art chassis, and then put a dinasour motor in it to keep it cheap. So can the engineers here explain the V6 numbers that just about match the Hemi numbers? That was really my point. Chrysler only has a V8 Hemi to compete with just about everyone else's V6's today.
What V6 numbers that match Hemi numbers? I've yet to see a mass production V6 that isn't FI that has the same levels of torque as the Hemi. Sure you've got a few V6s that are in the ~350hp range, but their torque is FAR lower, typically under 300. The Hemi is a torque monster, which makes the vehicle drive nice. Per your own numbers, that Merc V6 makes 270ish tq. The Hemi makes 390 torque. In the trucks it makes over 400tq. You're talking a HUGE difference.

The other thing you have to look at is the area under the curve. Many manufacturers will claim really high numbers (*cough* GM *cough*) that are achieved in a spurt, solely for marketing. You'll make very little power, then BAM you make the marketing power. An engine like the Hemi will have a much flatter torque curve, leading to a much more luxurious experience.

The Ecoboost is an impressive technology, but Ford locked in the licensing from Bosch, so Chrysler simply can't have it yet.

We have an Ecooost F150 for work. It's nice, but it is a lower end XLT. I could definitely see a spec'd out King Ranch with the Ecoboost not working out that great due to the extra weight, at least no compared to the V8s.

The biggest issue with turbos is for the manufacturers. Every idiot out there thinks that they can just take a turbo'd car and turn up the bost and it will be totally fine. They do that, and then they blow the engine up, and wonder why. They track this sort of stuff in the cars now, but having this issue in the first place is not what you want to deal with from a customer service point of view, and there's no winning there, because the people who blew their engines up will be indignant and it's CLEARLY not their fault, because Americans can't take responsibility anymore.
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  #63  
Old 10-06-2012, 10:12 AM
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Re: Possible trade for a WK2 Hemi, need advice from hemi owners

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Originally Posted by bill_de View Post
What does that mean? How can it have more and less displacement at the same time. My education must be lacking.
The actual combustion chambers with the new turbo applications equal larger displacements, but the over all size of the motor itself is much smaller and lighter. I condensed this part of the book down to get to the point rather than have a 4 page post.
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  #64  
Old 10-06-2012, 06:37 PM
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Re: Possible trade for a WK2 Hemi, need advice from hemi owners

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Originally Posted by Smooth1 View Post
The actual combustion chambers with the new turbo applications equal larger displacements, but the over all size of the motor itself is much smaller and lighter. I condensed this part of the book down to get to the point rather than have a 4 page post.
I don't think you understand how a turbocharger works.

The displacement of a turbo'd engine is typically smaller than the displacement of a NA vehicle making the same power. The turbocharger (or supercharger) forces additional air into the cylinders, which adjusts the amount of gas used, allowing for a larger combustion than typically seen in an engine of that size. This resulting explosion releases more power, and so the engine must be designed to cope with the additional stresses which in many cases makes the engine more expensive to produce. However, as you noted the engine is physically smaller, and in most cases lighter, allowing for flexibility in design, weight savings, etc.

You're going to see turbo be a prominent player in transversely mounted engine tech, as the ability to make the engine's physical size smaller will have a greater impact on the overall design of the vehicle. Hyundai has proven that midsize sedan buyers don't necessarily care about even offering a larger V6, so they can design the engine bay to be smaller and only fit 4 cylinder engines, thus can build a vehicle that is comparable in length to a vehicle that can fit a V6, but is larger in interior space.

Turbocharged engines have a few big advantages. They're not as affected by high altitudes for example, and in theory are capable of higher fuel economy for their hp amount (however, they're typically NOT capable of higher hp AND mpg at the same time - it requires a certain amount of fuel/air to create a certain amount of combustion and thus hp. The big advantage turbo'd vehicles have is the ability to not be in boost, and operate as a smaller NA engine with improved fuel economy due to the turbo scavenging the exhaust out).
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  #65  
Old 10-06-2012, 09:48 PM
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Coming from a turbo'ed Subaru I will clarify. Turbochargers ARE affected by higher altitude. Thinner air, leaner AF ratio. My Subaru that used to run 12.2 at close to sea level, would run leaner, less hp and a 13.0 at a track that was higher in elevation.

Secondly, with a proper tuner to the ECU, major HP gains are there. Also, on long trips my highly modified Subaru would average 26mpg.

The coming CRD WK2 will be awesome. It is a torque monster. Add a tune, and gain massage HP torque and mpg.

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  #66  
Old 10-07-2012, 12:17 AM
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Re: Possible trade for a WK2 Hemi, need advice from hemi owners

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Originally Posted by subbie09 View Post
Coming from a turbo'ed Subaru I will clarify. Turbochargers ARE affected by higher altitude. Thinner air, leaner AF ratio. My Subaru that used to run 12.2 at close to sea level, would run leaner, less hp and a 13.0 at a track that was higher in elevation.

Secondly, with a proper tuner to the ECU, major HP gains are there. Also, on long trips my highly modified Subaru would average 26mpg.

The coming CRD WK2 will be awesome. It is a torque monster. Add a tune, and gain massage HP torque and mpg.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk 2
This is true, though you'd likely have run more like high 13s were it not for the turbo. NA engines are affected more by the less dense air than turbo'd vehicles are.

Turning up he boost is always a compromise. More boost = more power, but more than likely it will accelerate the wear on the engine and transmission, and may prove to be unreliable. In today's age of efficiency optimization, I don't think you're going to see as many engines that are going to be capable of massive boost increases like you used to see. Heck, many new vehicles utilize integrated turbos, that are maxed out in boost at the desired PSI by the OEM, and simply cannot be replaced without massive amounts of work/money. Hyundai and BMW are both doing this already, and I'd expect more manufacturers to follow.

Regardless of that, manufacturers do track the level of boost that engines see in their computer systems, specifically for warranty issues. You come in with a blown engine, they check to make sure you didn't go over factory spec boost, they find you did and you end up with a nice repair bill.
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  #67  
Old 10-07-2012, 05:17 AM
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Re: Possible trade for a WK2 Hemi, need advice from hemi owners

all very true, but most modern day engines are built to withstand more hp than what they come with. For instance, the 03 Cobras, the TC/SS Cobalts, etc

I think the same will go for the CRD. Hell, who doesn't enjoy a few more ponies and torque, even if it is an SUV? lol
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Old 10-07-2012, 11:34 AM
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Re: Possible trade for a WK2 Hemi, need advice from hemi owners

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Originally Posted by subbie09 View Post
all very true, but most modern day engines are built to withstand more hp than what they come with. For instance, the 03 Cobras, the TC/SS Cobalts, etc

I think the same will go for the CRD. Hell, who doesn't enjoy a few more ponies and torque, even if it is an SUV? lol
Warranty claims departments.

Things are more optimized than they were back then. The Terminator Cobras were designed in a comparatively haphazard way, they built of the engine then slapped on a supercharged and saw what happened. Things are a lot more efficient now, in that thy build the engines to a much lower margin of error in terms of power. Heck, in a majority of cars nowdays, they're built such that if you modify the intake, exhaust, etc. the ECU will over the course of a few hundred miles scale back its power output to negate your mods!

And those two were performance models, the CRD Jeep is not. And the domestics have al learned from dealing with truck guys what will happen if they allow modification of diesel engines, people iwll violate them and boost them over the top then break something and come in for warranty work. This has been the way with diesel trucks for a long time.

But agin, if you look at recent offerings from Hyundai, etc. - the turbo'd cars are NOT designed or capable of significantly higher boost. And they track the levels that the engines see to avoid having to pay warranty costs for stupid people.

Regardless, Chrysler still has the PCM locked, and doesn't appear to be in any particular hurry to unlock the PCM (I can't blame them - especially with the turbo'd CRD).
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  #69  
Old 10-07-2012, 12:01 PM
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there already are tunes for the CRD across the pond which should be useable here.

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Old 10-08-2012, 07:59 PM
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Re: Possible trade for a WK2 Hemi, need advice from hemi owners

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Originally Posted by subbie09 View Post
there already are tunes for the CRD across the pond which should be useable here.

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The "tuning" they have is an electronic throttle booster, and possibly an IAT trick in one. It's not a real "tune" that affects timing, A/F ratios, etc. It's essentially boosting the throttle input, and possibly making the car think the air is denser than it is and making the car dump more gas into it.

Not what I'd call tuning.
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