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  #13  
Old 10-22-2014, 08:30 PM
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Re: Sales - v6 vs hemi vs diesel?

Maybe they're leery of all the problems people have experienced with the diesel. You know how forums are.

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  #14  
Old 10-23-2014, 08:57 AM
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Re: Sales - v6 vs hemi vs diesel?

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Originally Posted by Zybane View Post
That's crazy such a low take rate for the diesel. A heavy off-road capable SUV is the perfect candidate for a diesel. American's are just too stupid to realize the huge benefit of diesel.
Don't be too quick to blame "American's"; Jeep decided you can only get a diesel in Overland trim in Canada. You can't have a diesel entry price of $25,000 MORE than the $40,000 base / laredo trim, and then complain about lack of uptake.

I don't see why they don't offer the diesel in every trim, really. A $6000 price increase over the v6 is one thing (though still nuts IMO), but an additional $25,000 is just not going to happen in my lifetime.
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Old 10-23-2014, 09:02 AM
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Re: Sales - v6 vs hemi vs diesel?

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Originally Posted by canistel View Post
Don't be too quick to blame "American's"; Jeep decided you can only get a diesel in Overland trim in Canada. You can't have a diesel entry price of $25,000 MORE than the $40,000 base / laredo trim, and then complain about lack of uptake.

I don't see why they don't offer the diesel in every trim, really. A $6000 price increase over the v6 is one thing (though still nuts IMO), but an additional $25,000 is just not going to happen in my lifetime.

It is strange, indeed. In Switzerland you can buy the Diesel in every trim with no additional charge to the V6.
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  #16  
Old 10-23-2014, 02:19 PM
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Re: Sales - v6 vs hemi vs diesel?

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Originally Posted by Zybane View Post
That's crazy such a low take rate for the diesel. A heavy off-road capable SUV is the perfect candidate for a diesel. American's are just too stupid to realize the huge benefit of diesel.
I don't think it is because "Americans are stupid." I think it is because you're talking about a 3.0L Turbo V6, which costs more than the hemi but has far worse characteristics like 0-60. If it was say, a turbo V8 that was faster than the hemi then it would get far more takers. The other problem with Jeep's V8 is that it requires more maintenance and has worse reliability (you can't even get a lifetime warranty on it). Back in the day, the Toureg had a V10 diesel that was immensely popular because it was a massively powerful engine. They got rid of it in large part because the car was cannibalizing more expensive sales from brand siblings (Audi and Porsche).

The only real benefit to the diesel is that it is more fuel efficient, but given the price difference and extra maintenance it isn't a great budget choice either. Also, where I live diesel is more expensive than regular fuel. So if it isn't the performance choice, the reliability choice or the budget choice then what it is? That's right, the one that doesn't sell much.

EDIT: By the way, given the requirements for increased fuel economy, I would submit that the replacement for the Hemi (which I imagine is due to go away when the Jeep is redesigned) should be a large turbo-V8 diesel that should offer both better fuel economy and better performance. Even if they price it as an expensive add-on (as with the current diesel), I guarantee that it will be a big seller. A bunch of car manufacturers are killing their V8s for weaker turbo V6s (such as the Mercedes M and the Porsche Cayenne), leaving Jeep with an opportunity to capture market share for power hungry/performance oriented shoppers in the luxury category. Right now, if you want offroad capability, luxury and V8 power you're either spending around $100k or getting a Jeep.
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Old 10-23-2014, 04:49 PM
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Re: Sales - v6 vs hemi vs diesel?

The Hemi is a gas guzzler, plain and simple. For the everyday driver not interested in stomping on the gas for thrills it makes little sense. Yes it will go away with the next redesign, but a turbo V8 diesel is unlikely to be in the cards. The hemi will more likely be replaced a turbo V6 gas engine as the 2015 Mercedes ML and others have. If Jeep keeps the Turbo V6 diesel they'll have an edge as the ML diesel is now a turbo 4 banger.
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  #18  
Old 10-23-2014, 10:25 PM
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Re: Sales - v6 vs hemi vs diesel?

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Originally Posted by Zybane View Post
That's crazy such a low take rate for the diesel. A heavy off-road capable SUV is the perfect candidate for a diesel. American's are just too stupid to realize the huge benefit of diesel.
The only reason to buy the diesel in the GC is for efficiency while towing. If not towing, save the money, get the V-6... it's quicker and far cheaper than the diesel, less troublesome in very low temperatures (gasoline doesn't gel), doesn't require DEF, and has a much better fuel availability (with cheaper fuel, even!) in the US.

The thousands more the diesel costs will buy a LOT of fuel. The payoff for the diesel is pretty far out there... well over a hundred thousand miles the last time I ran the numbers. But I'll run them here...

Fuel costs are, right now, at the station nearest me, $2.79 for regular unleaded and $3.29 for diesel. Initial purchase cost over the V-6 is $4500. So you're starting off at a $4500 cost disadvantage. Using 4x4 highway mileage (24 for the V6, 28 for the diesel), over 100,000 miles you're using only 595.2 gallons more gasoline than diesel. But remember, diesel costs more- you've paid $$11,750 for 3,571.4 gallons of diesel, but only $11,625 for 4166.7 gallons of regular unleaded. So even after 100,000 miles you're still behind on fuel costs to the tune of $125. And that doesn't get better. Going to 200,000 miles still shows you're spending more money for less diesel than gasoline. On top of that $4500 more you already paid for the engine. If the diesel were as quick as the Hemi, then there'd be a case... at 100,000 miles, the Hemi's used 5000 gallons of midgrade (at $2.94) for a cost of 14,700... so the added cost of the diesel over the Hemi has been made back at that point. But it isn't... it's slower than the V-6, so if you want performance, you're getting the Hemi.

Yeah, there's no financial case for the diesel over the 3.6L.

It's not hard for me to see why the diesel has a low take rate. If the initial purchase cost was more reasonable it would make more sense. But if you want overall economy, you get the V-6. If you want more getup, you get the Hemi. If you want to tow long distances and efficiency is a big deal, then and only then is the diesel all that sensible.
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  #19  
Old 10-23-2014, 11:15 PM
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Re: Sales - v6 vs hemi vs diesel?

Ran extensive road test of Jeep gas V6, diesel V6 and Mercedes ML Bluetech, VW Touareg TDI. Exact same course and speeds for each. Jeep V6 did not deliver sticker MPGs, but Jeep diesel exceeded them and beat the other two. Diesel resale is higher than gas for this class of SUVs so some of the extra initial cost is returned. I tow at weights the diesel supports.
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  #20  
Old 10-23-2014, 11:40 PM
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Re: Sales - v6 vs hemi vs diesel?

Diesel sales in Australia are probably about 50% I'd guess, with 40% V6 and 10% V8. The V8s lose their resale value quickly because 2nd hand buyers don't like the fuel consumption. Diesels have always been popular here because they tow better, and have better consumption and range. So resale is higher. I think another reason resale for diesels in Australia is higher is the perception that diesel motors last longer than petrol engines.

I don't tow, but I bought the diesel because my last car was a diesel and I like the torque you have available for onroad and offroad driving, also fuel consumption and range are contributing reasons for that decision, along with resale value.

edit: I'll add that the GC is one of the best selling SUVs in the country at the moment, on a par with the Toyota Prado. One of the reasons for that is the excellent diesel motor for such a low price, you have to go almost double the money to get a Discovery or Touareg diesel. In comparison the Toyota 4 pot diesel is a joke.
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  #21  
Old 10-24-2014, 11:14 AM
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Re: Sales - v6 vs hemi vs diesel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthstarSRX View Post
The Hemi is a gas guzzler, plain and simple. For the everyday driver not interested in stomping on the gas for thrills it makes little sense. Yes it will go away with the next redesign, but a turbo V8 diesel is unlikely to be in the cards. The hemi will more likely be replaced a turbo V6 gas engine as the 2015 Mercedes ML and others have. If Jeep keeps the Turbo V6 diesel they'll have an edge as the ML diesel is now a turbo 4 banger.

For an "everyday driver not interested in stomping on the gas for thrills" the V6 is the engine of choice. But as a performance oriented driver, if the V8 goes away without a performance replacement option then I'm simply not buying another Jeep. The lack of availability of a solid performance option made me write off the 4Runner and MDX immediately.

Also, I have to ask, when you say it is a "gas guzzler" you're implying what, that it is expensive? Again, the diesel isn't the budget option - it is too expensive and requires expensive maintenance.

My Turbo-diesel V8 idea was simply stating that there are circumstances under which a diesel would be a very popular choice and would serve Jeep's needs for a replacement for the hemi as well. Just that the current incarnation is unlikely to gain a significant following.
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  #22  
Old 10-24-2014, 02:09 PM
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Re: Sales - v6 vs hemi vs diesel?

Like all markets, the JGC targeted audience is segmented and there are different definitions of "performance". I happen to define it pretty much as Benn0 does.

A couple of points:
1. The USA federal mandate on fuel economy will likely make a serious dent in V8 availability and sales. Even Corvette, an noted "performance machine" is talking about a turbo V6 in the next generation. Mercedes dropped the V8 in the ML in favor of a turbo V6. The hand writing is on the wall. I love a V8, as my handle "Northstar", indicates, and also have a classic Vette. But as a realist recognize I need to change. MY '15 JGC diesel on order performs amazing well from my '14 test drives.
2. Marchionne has stated that he views even the diesel V6 as a temporary gap filler. It is more likely to go the Mercedes route;a turbo diesel 4 banger except in trucks. V8s are heavy, 4 bangers less so. Weight matters.
3. Hybrids with electric motors give some damn great performance. Electric is fast off the line. A diesel hybrid makes a lot of sense.
4. I would argue that if the USA were to reduce the federal fuel tax on diesel down to the same as it is on gasoline, then diesel vehicle sales in the USA would take off to the levels they are elsewhere.

What extra maintenance? Regular oil changes, adding Urea fluid, (note no CO2). What else? Diesels are noted for longevity another reason for the higher resale.
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  #23  
Old 10-24-2014, 10:56 PM
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Re: Sales - v6 vs hemi vs diesel?

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Originally Posted by Technosavant View Post
The only reason to buy the diesel in the GC is for efficiency while towing. If not towing, save the money, get the V-6... it's quicker and far cheaper than the diesel, less troublesome in very low temperatures (gasoline doesn't gel), doesn't require DEF, and has a much better fuel availability (with cheaper fuel, even!) in the US.

The thousands more the diesel costs will buy a LOT of fuel. The payoff for the diesel is pretty far out there... well over a hundred thousand miles the last time I ran the numbers. But I'll run them here...

Fuel costs are, right now, at the station nearest me, $2.79 for regular unleaded and $3.29 for diesel. Initial purchase cost over the V-6 is $4500. So you're starting off at a $4500 cost disadvantage. Using 4x4 highway mileage (24 for the V6, 28 for the diesel), over 100,000 miles you're using only 595.2 gallons more gasoline than diesel. But remember, diesel costs more- you've paid $$11,750 for 3,571.4 gallons of diesel, but only $11,625 for 4166.7 gallons of regular unleaded. So even after 100,000 miles you're still behind on fuel costs to the tune of $125. And that doesn't get better. Going to 200,000 miles still shows you're spending more money for less diesel than gasoline. On top of that $4500 more you already paid for the engine. If the diesel were as quick as the Hemi, then there'd be a case... at 100,000 miles, the Hemi's used 5000 gallons of midgrade (at $2.94) for a cost of 14,700... so the added cost of the diesel over the Hemi has been made back at that point. But it isn't... it's slower than the V-6, so if you want performance, you're getting the Hemi.

Yeah, there's no financial case for the diesel over the 3.6L.

It's not hard for me to see why the diesel has a low take rate. If the initial purchase cost was more reasonable it would make more sense. But if you want overall economy, you get the V-6. If you want more getup, you get the Hemi. If you want to tow long distances and efficiency is a big deal, then and only then is the diesel all that sensible.
Oh no, someone is throwing facts out there. I totally agree with this. From my previous with diesels, GM and VW, I have found that I am not a diesel guy. The mileage is great, but the inconvenience and inevitable maintenance and repairs always killed that advantage for me. Add in the new DEF systems and it just gets more complicated.

Me, I can now appreciate my ancient technology, simple as a stone, port fuel injected, push rod V8. No turbos, no direct injection (ALL the manufacturers seem to be having issues with those as they age) with plentiful and cheap parts. It gets decent gas mileage (17-21 so far) for what it is, and should last a LONG time.

Just my $.02. YMMV - and very well may be better. Which is OK with me.
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  #24  
Old 10-24-2014, 11:14 PM
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Re: Sales - v6 vs hemi vs diesel?

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Originally Posted by devilsadvocate View Post
I don't think it is because "Americans are stupid." I think it is because you're talking about a 3.0L Turbo V6, which costs more than the hemi but has far worse characteristics like 0-60. If it was say, a turbo V8 that was faster than the hemi then it would get far more takers. The other problem with Jeep's V8 is that it requires more maintenance and has worse reliability (you can't even get a lifetime warranty on it). Back in the day, the Toureg had a V10 diesel that was immensely popular because it was a massively powerful engine. They got rid of it in large part because the car was cannibalizing more expensive sales from brand siblings (Audi and Porsche).
The Diesel 3.0 is not drastically different than the Hemi. In fact, with an inexpensive tuner box, it is quicker. 0-60 is very respectable and 0-45 which is common in city driving is stronger than the Hemi. I guess until you drive one, it's hard to realize how much more usable torque the diesel has...and no loud reving and poor mileage. There is nothing wrong with the other engine options but to claim the Ecodiesel isn't even comparable is to not know the capabilities.
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