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  #145  
Old 02-11-2011, 01:00 PM
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Re: Unsure about snow performance

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Originally Posted by Bmwister View Post
I travel a lot, especially during winter months which means I'm not always in Chicago. If I would do the swap, I might get one season on a set of snows; it's a hassle to mount new shoes every year and have them balanced as well as keeping multiple sets of wheels around for the several vehicles we own and use. When I'm going to FL and then on to Virginia before going home, I would have to swap wheels because snow tires are terrible in warm climates; that's another hassle. Like I stated, it's an individual decision. If we lived in mountainous states or rural areas and did not travel south often then yes it would be worth the hassle.

Right, it's an individual decision, not a REQUIREMENT, and you are not a MENACE because you choose not to put snows on....

-Ryan

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  #146  
Old 02-11-2011, 01:12 PM
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Re: Unsure about snow performance

Here is a relevant article for people to make their own assessment:

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...mparison_tests


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  #147  
Old 02-11-2011, 03:27 PM
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Re: Unsure about snow performance

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Originally Posted by Bmwister View Post
Here is a relevant article for people to make their own assessment:

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...mparison_tests

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Very interesting and not at all unexpected. Not only does it not change my mind, but now I'm probably less inclined to buy winter tires than I was before reading.

My thought process is this: Of all the driving, how much of it (as a percentage) is on snow, dry, ice, wet. For me the vast majority is dry/wet, even in the cold. Yes, it snows, snow stays on the road for a bit, but then the salting eliminates that or at least makes the roads wet instead.

Since it looks like the gain you get on pure snow is equally taken away on dry/wet roads, then it's probably more dangerous to drive with winter tires unless there is always snow on the ground.

At least most people use a little more caution when there is snow, I definitely don't want 20% less handling on dry roads by using a winter tire, since we are usually more careless in dry conditions.

Something to think about, thanks for posting.
-Ryan
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  #148  
Old 02-11-2011, 03:59 PM
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Re: Unsure about snow performance

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Originally Posted by Bmwister View Post
I travel a lot, especially during winter months which means I'm not always in Chicago. If I would do the swap, I might get one season on a set of snows; it's a hassle to mount new shoes every year and have them balanced as well as keeping multiple sets of wheels around for the several vehicles we own and use. When I'm going to FL and then on to Virginia before going home, I would have to swap wheels because snow tires are terrible in warm climates; that's another hassle. Like I stated, it's an individual decision. If we lived in mountainous states or rural areas and did not travel south often then yes it would be worth the hassle.

Sure it is up to you, it is just nothing to do with "Unsure about snow performance", especially when you writing about trips Florida and terrible on summer. Actually they are not terrible and you could get performance snow tires instead of harsh studless snow/ice as well. Also I am sure you will be getting them not for one season even for heavy driving millage. My previous set of Blizzak’s I used for 3 winters took around 40K miles total and I sold my car with around 30-40% left. And I am in NJ with normally less snow/wintery weather than in Chicago.
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  #149  
Old 02-11-2011, 04:02 PM
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Re: Unsure about snow performance

I live in Chicago and snow tires are not necessary on these jeeps with the forteras. I used to put blizzaks on my G, but only because it was so light and needed the extra traction. One of the other problems is that we don't have quite as much storage space available than most people since i live in the city, so storing tires is a pain.
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  #150  
Old 02-11-2011, 04:15 PM
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Re: Unsure about snow performance

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Originally Posted by Bmwister View Post
Here is a relevant article for people to make their own assessment:

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...mparison_tests


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The pics on this winter tire road test look to me like the snow and ice test ground was pretty controlled and, simply not a real true world winter wonderland test drive.

For those of us who drive to northern VT every weekend to ski, the snow and ice conditions vary so much that snow tires, no matter what type of vehicle are a safety and ease of driving necessity.

If I never left Boston proper, I would likely stick with all seasons and be fine. The final decision is up to each of us, and is completely dependent upon where and how we winter the winter.
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  #151  
Old 02-11-2011, 04:46 PM
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Re: Unsure about snow performance

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Originally Posted by Breitling65 View Post
Sure it is up to you, it is just nothing to do with "Unsure about snow performance"
We disagree somewhat. I believe it certainly is relevant to the overall winter snow performance issue; not everybody is driving in snow 100% of the time here. How much snow and how often one drives through snow and their performance expectations are critical deciding factors along with other circumstances like mine. Some people may be better off overall with a true M&S rated tire rather than the extra expense and hassle of swapping to a dedicated winter tire and do so without a show-stopping reduction in snow performance. The point is to encourage people to think about and discuss things.
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  #152  
Old 02-11-2011, 05:52 PM
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Re: Unsure about snow performance

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Originally Posted by rybocf View Post
Excuse me? Where did I say that? Sorry "Sarge", but what's with your bantering about people being a menace if they don't buy snow tires THEN misquoting and assuming things about me???

-Ryan
I'm just reading what you wrote:

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Originally Posted by rybocf View Post
... for the first 25 years of my life. My family never bought snow tires. We used all-seasons ... Take your time ...
You say your family has never bought snow tires, so... you have no meaningful experience from which to opine, right? If, for instance you'd said "We used to always use snow tires, and switched back to all season tires because they make no difference"... then you'd have a valid base of experience - even if your conclusion was still faulty.

Take your time = pokey, slow, parade leader. "this is as fast as it's safe to go!" the parade leader mumbles to himself, indignantly refusing to pull aside to let other better-equipped people get on their way... That's how it goes. We've all been stuck in a parade from time to time, particularly on two lane mountain roads. Definitely in the winter.

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Snow tires ... are nice to have and definitely make it better and safer, but only a small percentage of people actually must have them to make it up their driveways, to their farm roads, etc.

-Ryan
Well that's interesting. What is it that makes them 'nice to have', anyway? Showing off in the Dairy Queen parking lot? What? What's that you say? They actually are safer and more capable in snow?

The video links seemed not to show up, so here they are again. Notice how the car with all season tires can't turn the corners:



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  #153  
Old 02-11-2011, 06:07 PM
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Re: Unsure about snow performance

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Originally Posted by rybocf View Post
Very interesting and not at all unexpected. Not only does it not change my mind, but now I'm probably less inclined to buy winter tires than I was before reading.

My thought process is this: Of all the driving, how much of it (as a percentage) is on snow, dry, ice, wet. For me the vast majority is dry/wet, even in the cold. Yes, it snows, snow stays on the road for a bit, but then the salting eliminates that or at least makes the roads wet instead.

Since it looks like the gain you get on pure snow is equally taken away on dry/wet roads, then it's probably more dangerous to drive with winter tires unless there is always snow on the ground.

At least most people use a little more caution when there is snow, I definitely don't want 20% less handling on dry roads by using a winter tire, since we are usually more careless in dry conditions.

Something to think about, thanks for posting.
-Ryan
It is entirely dependent on the operating conditions - that is the point. However, it does bear mentioning that most people are typically driving at 5/10's of their vehicles tractive capability in dry and/or rain. When it snows, many barely adjust their habits or speed, and so are ignorantly driving at or beyond 9/10's of their vehicle's tractive force.

Whereas in dry/wet conditions, they leave themselves a large envelope to take evasive action (braking, steering), once they get onto snow/ice they drive nearly as quickly as they do in the dry. Thus they leave themselves almost NO safety margin when driving in the most dangerous of all conditions. That's why snow tires are so important: NOT "getting up your driveway"... but leaving yourself a larger envelope to avoid trouble (steering/braking) WITHOUT driving so slow people are trying to spot the hearse.

All of this being the case, it is not 'more dangerous' to drive on snow tires in the winter. The law of averages makes that pretty clear. During a given norther winter, the incident rate of cars with snow tires getting in accidents is not higher than those without.

Surely, this is all relative to the weather you see. If you don't see sustained cold temps and/or lots of snowfall, then dedicated snow tires aren't needed. But if you live in Vermont...? You definitely stand to benefit, even if you don't know it yet.
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  #154  
Old 02-11-2011, 06:18 PM
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Re: Unsure about snow performance

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Originally Posted by Cperez View Post
Hey guys, where are your manners??!!

I mean, no one even welcomed Sarge to the forum.

(Welcome aboard, Sarge. With a handle like that I'm guessing you're not thin-skinned.)
No, not particularly thin-skinned, but that much should be self evident at this point.
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  #155  
Old 02-11-2011, 06:27 PM
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Re: Unsure about snow performance

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Originally Posted by BHHJEEP View Post
I live on the east coast of Canada and went out today in the snow. I am used to an Audi with snow tires and I must say these all seasons blow. I will be getting a set of snow tires very soon.

I just need to know what is the best options for wheels + tires + Pressure sensor combo. I don't know if I should get 18's or just put winter shoes on the 20's. I don't want to spend more than $1500 probably. And I don't want a hassle either.

Any info on what would be best would be really appreciated.
I've had quite a few Audi's over the years, and your comment brings to light another aspect of snow travel: Lighter vehicles turn/stop better than heavier vehicles, because there's less mass in motion to turn/stop. Tall, skinny snow tires make a Subaru Outback one of the most unbeatable snow machines out there.

A big heavy GC may track nicely in the snow (resistant to being pushed around) but turning and stopping a heavy vehicle like that makes snow tires all the more important.

I presently have an allroad, X5 4.8i, Element and Wrangler Rubicon. All wear snow tires, but the Element (the lightest) turns and stops best of them all. The BMW was delivered with summer performance tires in December, and literally would get stuck in my flat driveway (while I was waiting for runflat snow tires to arrive). Even now, the big, heavy X5 is the worst of the lot when turning/braking on snow/ice is involved.

Also, buy the tallest, narrowest snow tires you can. Think 'hockey skates'.
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  #156  
Old 02-11-2011, 07:13 PM
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Re: Unsure about snow performance

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Originally Posted by Sarge View Post
I'm just reading what you wrote:

You say your family has never bought snow tires, so... you have no meaningful experience from which to opine, right? If, for instance you'd said "We used to always use snow tires, and switched back to all season tires because they make no difference"... then you'd have a valid base of experience - even if your conclusion was still faulty.

Take your time = pokey, slow, parade leader. "this is as fast as it's safe to go!" the parade leader mumbles to himself, indignantly refusing to pull aside to let other better-equipped people get on their way... That's how it goes. We've all been stuck in a parade from time to time, particularly on two lane mountain roads. Definitely in the winter.

Well that's interesting. What is it that makes them 'nice to have', anyway? Showing off in the Dairy Queen parking lot? What? What's that you say? They actually are safer and more capable in snow?
I'll reply one more time and then drop it, I can't stand people that fight in forums, and I don't want to become one.

1. Never having owned snow tires does not make me clueless as their use and value. If the tires I have purchased over the years have kept me safe and give me confidence in my driving and conditions, why am I a moron for not just "buying better ones" based on the word of others? Not owning something does not make people unaware of the value...I can read after all.

2. Take your time. Yes, I believe that going slower in the snow is warranted. Are you going to disagree with me on that too? For the last time, that doesn't mean I drive like grandma on Sunday. It just means I keep more distance to the cars in front of me, keep the speed to safe levels for the conditions, and "go easy". That's how I learned to drive in the snow living in VT. If you tell me (and I hear others back it up) that with good snow tires I can drive on snow like it were dry pavement, then damn, I will go buy a set.

3. There is nothing wrong with people choosing to purchase snow tires. In my opinion they are not necessary in most conditions. Obviously you disagree, and I take exception to people who throw around opinions as if they are facts and dump on others for not seeing it their way. Hence the point of my first response.

-Ryan
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