Jeep Garage  - Jeep Forum banner

V8 vs mythical crd

6K views 53 replies 26 participants last post by  Willx 
#1 ·
I'm getting impatient waiting for the crd, so started negotiating on a summit v8. I think where I'm going to end up is getting a better deal on the v8. It looks like with the better deal my break even point would be around 57000 miles. Should I wait for the crd or pull the trigger on the hemi? That is the question. Any v8 guys wish they would've waited for the crd?
 
#3 ·
I was in the same spot as you -- actually probably even more committed to the CRD -- and after the last delay I said f-it and ordered the HEMI. You can always check out the CRD when it comes out and always trade-in right? Plus if the CRD has problems, you'll be sitting pretty.
 
#4 ·
I love my V8 Summit. I have no regrets not waiting for the diesel (And many would call me an environmentalist). I'd say if MPG aren't your primary concern, pull the trigger and start enjoying the 2014 sooner, rather than later. But I do feel Jeep should be in trouble for advertising the CRT so much while acting like it is available in the US when it ain't.
 
#5 ·
It all depends on what you would use the Jeep for & how long you plan on keeping it & how many miles you drive/year. I am waiting for the CRD for many reasons. Also, the model I want is a special edition & that won't be out until later this year anyways so it doesn't bother me to wait. After reading many people's reviews online here that have the CRD (Australia in particular) they would choose the CRD in a heartbeat.
 
#7 ·
Get the V8 and enjoy your Jeep. When it comes time to trade it in you'll know if diesel has yet to catch on in this country. By then you may decide to wait and wait and wait for Jeep's natural gas vehicle ... and then you will get tired of waiting and order another Hemi. ;)



.
 
#8 ·
Anyone notice that you cannot get a Hemi in a Laredo or Laredo "E" ? Clearly CJF is trying to push people into the Limited and above. For example it does not appear that a read view camera is available to anything below a Linited.

I suspect that what they will really do is push cost-concious GC buyers into other vehicles. If the Cherokee (no grand) was available that might receive some of the move but, like the diesel, they are focussing advertising on something that is not available.

Frankly the rationale is beyond me. Any ideas ?

In any event, would not seem to be a great idea considering the CJF first quarter performance.
 
#10 ·
Anyone notice that you cannot get a Hemi in a Laredo or Laredo "E" ? Clearly CJF is trying to push people into the Limited and above. For example it does not appear that a read view camera is available to anything below a Linited.

I suspect that what they will really do is push cost-concious GC buyers into other vehicles. If the Cherokee (no grand) was available that might receive some of the move but, like the diesel, they are focussing advertising on something that is not available.

Frankly the rationale is beyond me. Any ideas ?

In any event, would not seem to be a great idea considering the CJF first quarter performance.
More likely they find that people who are cost conscious are going to pass on a $2000 add to the price to get lower gas mileage. They probably have better statistics than we can get on a JeepGarage poll.



.
 
#9 ·
Depends on what your needs are. If there are no longer any delays and ordering is right around the corner, then why put all that waiting you've already done to waste. If you wanted the diesel for mileage, then the V8 is a bad choice since it is not built for mileage. I wanted to wait for the diesel as well, but the original delay was way too long and we needed a vehicle before you could order. I got the V8 and don't regret it at all. The power is awesome and it's a proven engine in the states, so I have no worries the unknown and maintenance will primarily be taken care of by me.

Ultimately it's your money and choice, so do what feels right to you, but don't make a decision that will make you regret your choice when you start seeing diesel models driving around and talk around here making you wish you got it.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Having owned a Cummins diesel for several years and supporting the extra costs and servicing requirements, here's my take between the Hemi and VM Motori:

The horsepower is much less on the diesel but the torque is slightly higher--+30 foot pounds. However, torque in the diesel, like most diesels come on early so you can start moving the load sooner without having to run the engine to near max. Is there enough difference in torque to justify the diesel for towing? I don't think the Grand was designed for any significant towing compared to a regular truck. IF you are going to tow regularly at or near it's limit, 7,000 pounds, you owuld be better served with a pick up truck--prefereably a deisl truck that generates 650-800 pounds of torque and all the proper gearing, coolihg, sway control, etc. Not only is it just weight, but wind resistence, bumper weight, weight of the passengers and gear, water, fuel, fluids that accompanying a large camper or boat or ATVs. Occassional towing of a jet ski or ATV can be handled by the Hemi just fine---it's the same used in Ram's 1/2 ton and 3/4 ton Power Wagon--though the Power Wagon uses a 4.56 rear ring ratio to make up for a smaller engine compared to the Cummins.

Diesel used to cost 20cents less than regular gas. It now runs about 15-25 cents higher than premium because what used to be low sulfure crude (50 ppm)is now requried by the EPA to be ultra lower sulfur crude (15 ppm). The price per gallon is now quite high to the extra processing using some sort of hydogen to remove the sulfer.

Diesel's next benefit used to be better fuel mileage. Will we actually be getting 25-30 estimated or will it be closer to 20-25 mpg actual? Given the exta 15-25 cents per gallon cost, this increase in mileage would be washed out by the extra cost in fuel.

Diesel engines are supposed to last forever---will you keep the grand for 300,000 miles? Of course, industrial grade diesels like the Ram Cummins 6.7 is rated for 350,000 miles before an anticipated rebuilt---and that includes all the Cummins 6.7 used in commercial hauling uses. Personal use Ram Cummins often lasts 500,000-750,000 without even open the head. Will VM Motori be as stout?

Diesels are now chocked with EPA emissions such as engine gas regeneration (EGR) where exhaust is piped back into the intake as neutral inert gas to reduce exhaust gas temperature---sort of like breathing in your own farts, particulate filters and using raw diesel fuel sparyed into the particulate filters to burn off soot, and using DEF (Dieself Exhaust fluid--eseentially pee water) to convert exhaust gases to less toxic emissions. The Grand Cherokee Diesel uses an 8 gallon tank to hold DEF. In cold weather, the DEF tank uses a heater to prevent freezing. However, reports from the GMC/Chevy truck forums have complained of DEF freezing and cauisng the engine to go into limp mode. There are frequent complaints on the truck forums about DEF tank sensors sending "NEAR EMPTY" when it is half full--again causing the engine to go into limp mode. Very inconvenient when you are out in the middle of nowhere to go into limp mode. Should you carry an extra 5 gallons of DEF just in case? No problem in a pick up, but the Grand is not a pick up and space is at a premium.

Will there be a requiremnt to clean the EGR every 50,000 or so miles? It costs about a thousand bucks to clean out the EGR and replace both filters in the CCV filters and valves in the Cummins as it requries pulling the EGR out and soaking it out. Just another expense to plan for.

Will you need special CJ-4 API rated diesel engine oil? We use 5w-20, but any old 5w-20 will do. Diesels have been forced to use CJ-4 if not CK-4--the next generation oil, to cope with soot build up and EGR and particulate filter and emissions. Using other than CJ-4 can harm the emissions and engine components. Another cost and service consideration. ANd changing fuel filters in diesels is VERY IMPORTANT. Every 15,000 miles. How much for the Grand Cherokee diesel?

Becuase Cummins will last until the next ice age, resale value--the next diesel benefit, is high. Will VM Motori be anywhere near as good in resale? Even with all costs, the resale justifies the $7,500 extra for a Cummins, or the $4,500 for the VM Motori. Will the resale hold to recoup the cost?

I think these are all factors to consider before jumping on the small diesel bandwagon with eyes glazed on the 25-30 mpg promise.
 
#12 · (Edited)
OTOH if you look at how assembly lines are organized, putting a drivetrain from one model line into another on the same line is essentially zero cost. The only times this has any rationality is when they have more orders than they can fill, less powertrains, or there is a CAFE problem.

CJF is famous for mandatory options forcing upsell/extra profit.

ps in Florida, diesel is more like a 40-50 cent premium over 87 PON.
 
#25 ·
But it's not a new engine. It's only "new" to the US market relative to Jeep GC...
 
#14 ·
I wouldn't wait. Early tests have been favorable, but it's not much quicker than the Pentastar. It's very heavy. The Hemi is quicker, will be easier to maintain, and is proven.
 
#15 ·
It is obvious that the 240HP of the CRD won't make it a speed demon. You want the CRD because of the torque and MPG. It does not make economic sense if you are comparing it with the V6. It makes sense if you want lots of low end torque vs the V8.
 
#16 ·
I gave up waiting and ordered the v8 this morning. I wanted the torque more than the mileage, however I still think the CRD is the best of both worlds.

Really frustrating that the reward of waiting one more month is a $500 price increase on the HEMI... according to the dealerconnect system (Jeep website still has the old pricing). I sen't Jeep customer service a respectful WTF email, maybe I'll get lucky and they send my a $500 customer cash coupon. Uuugh.
 
#18 ·
A good answer is to lease a hemi now for 1-2years, then you can decide on switching for the CRD, and it locks in your costs /depreciation on the hemi. You may come out ahead if the hemi resale value tanks because of all the great CRD mileage.
 
#19 ·
I opted to order a 2013 Overland Summit with the tow package and Hemi last October rather than wait for the CRD. Quite frankly, the dealership learning curve to service diesels is suspect. Another reason for not waiting was the fact that this was not the M-B, Audi, Tourage, etc. 3.0 diesel. I traded in a 2012 Silverado HD crewcab with less torque than the '13 GC. Having owned several diesels, I can't justify the added fuel costs and maintenance costs that will occur with the CRD. Yes, the resale will be stronger, but not enough to sway me.
 
#20 ·
traded for a summit v8 just a few minutes ago that the dealer has coming in next week. were going with the pre may 1st numbers on the hemi. gave up on the crd this generation.
 
#21 · (Edited)
All good stuff to think about ms.annthrope.

Don't we have a some track record on small diesels performance/maintenance costs/smog stuff/resale given all the TDIs running around in VW, Audi, BMW etc. Also isn't there a decent track record of the existing smaller CRDs of exceeding EPA numbers, especially on highway driving? Granted the VM Motori is newer.

Around here in NJ diesel seems to be running around the cost of premium but I'll check again at few stations I pass. Was running little higher during winter if I remember correctly.
 
#22 · (Edited)
Forgot to add in the cold weather issue of gelling diesel fuel. Diesel is thicker and will start clouding at 40F. It can start thicken up enough at 10F to interfere with starting or running. Diesel owners use additives like Kleen Power Diesel or Howe's or Stanadyne to prevent gelling, kill algae, lubricate injectors, and seperate/disperse water. We also use engine block heaters to keep the coolant about 50 degrees F even in a deep freeze. If you live up north, consider the engine block heater in winter and keep an extra fuel filter or two in the vehicle. If you gel up, you will mostly likely need to pour in Kleen Power Diesel 911, wait, remove fuel filter and replace with a new filter, try to crank again, etc. Worse case is a tow to an indoor facility to thaw out the diesel fuel. That's why truckers run the engine the entire night in winter.

Fuel up in stations that go through a lot of fuel to reduce water condensation in diesel like truck stops. Flyers, Loves, TA, Flying J were on my list on every road trip. Most additives can disperse water but water disrupt engine perforamance and damage parts, and diesel parts are expensive. Bad fuel is also a bane of diesels as they are more sensitive to fuel give the higher parameters of performance and emissions standards. These are not the smoky low powered tractor engiens of yore that can run on motor oil, peanut oil, or kerosense mixed in. They are much more finicky and with injectors running at 25,000-30,000 psi, diesel fuel must be clean and pure.

Many folks are not aware of what it takes to keep a diesel happy and end up being unhappy owners.

I believe some of the VW diesels can hit 45 mpgs, 40 mpg with just some judicious right foot action. Of course the diesel Passats, Bugs, and Golfs are rated at much lower numbers, around 230 pounds of torque and 140 horses. Notice the 3.0 liter Toureg mpg drops to 29 mpg when tuned to near Jeep numbers.

http://web.vw.com/tdi-clean-diesel/

Big difference in power. You pay to play.
 
#23 · (Edited)
I drove an ML320 Bluetec (Diesel with Urea system) and put about 22,000 miles a year and I drove it in almost -10F weather a fair bit. I never once needed to plug it in and I saved easily $1200-$1500 a year in fuel cost alone compared to driving a 5.3 Yukon.
You may say that is not a fair comparison with the bigger vehicle but I also towed my 7000 Pound trailer with both and the 3.0 Diesel hands down was an easier less expensive drive. I am not saying that the VM will be the same but it has higher torque and horsepower than my old Bluetec. I am currently hauling that trailer with a 2011 Durango Hemi and it is a tough go (likely would be better with the 8 speed but still).
If I get a chance I will try it out with the new Cherokee Hemi but one thing that you can't get out of the gas engine is those low revs on the highway. I learned that when I switched to the Bluetec, if you are going to tow, the low revs and less shifting the way less stress.... 4 hour haul feels like nothing. I don't know how to put a price on that but if you want to tow with your GC think about that too.
 
#24 ·
I wanted to add, I never needed to add any additive of any kind during the entire ownership. The problems I did have with the vehicle were nothing to do with the engine or transmission, both ran flawlessly. The stuff I had issues with were all electronics or electrical
 
#29 ·
The largest factor is going to be resale and what gas prices are going to do in the next few years. If gas sky rockets V8's may become less popular and diesels/hybrids king. But if things stay constant getting the diesel will take a while to break even.
 
#30 ·
Why the delay on the CRD engine? Are they having problems with it? This is something I think would be a relevant question. I realize this engine has been in use for years across the ocean, but is it a good engine? Age doesn't necessarily equal reliability.

Also, virtually every reliability report I've read gives the Hemi a poor report card compared to the V6, I'm not sure why people aren't talking about this. Another factor to consider vs. the CRD.

Tony
 
#31 ·
Why the delay on the CRD engine? Are they having problems with it? This is something I think would be a relevant question. I realize this engine has been in use for years across the ocean, but is it a good engine? Age doesn't necessarily equal reliability.

Also, virtually every reliability report I've read gives the Hemi a poor report card compared to the V6, I'm not sure why people aren't talking about this. Another factor to consider vs. the CRD.

Tony
Milous answered this yesterday ... keep up! :lol:

They are building diesels to get them to places where they are more popular, like Australia. He said they are running low on MY13 product.
 
#32 ·
Yes, as bill and Milous have said: it makes good business sense to keep the channel full where they would be losing sales since the gas models don't sell nearly as well down there. I'm sure it's also so that they probably have their US-destined lines saturated with V6 and V8 orders so shifting resources doesn't make lots of sense.

My guess is that as long as they are producing as many vehicles as they possibly can, they will not open up the CRD orders. There's no reason to. All their lines are saturated and CRD orders would do nothing for their bottom line.

Once the gasser demand gets low enough that they have capacity on the line, they'll open up the CRD orders. That will probably be after summer since they have a hot item on their hands. My guess is that orders will open up in August for Sept delivery.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top