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  #37  
Old 08-09-2010, 08:48 PM
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Re: WK2 VS LR4 and 4 Runner in Motor Trend

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Originally Posted by Technosavant View Post
While there's no such thing as "too fast," there's certainly such thing as "fast enough." The complaint is indeed about the 0-60; that's what the griping is about, since the GC catches up after that. Obviously Jeep decided there wasn't much call to keep the speed edge. Times have changed. We no longer live in a day where absolute speed matters, good enough is just fine when you pick up a few more MPG in trade. That's the new way of thinking.



Well, GEEZ, dude, your location reads as "deep in yo' mummy," and my mummy isn't in Australia. Take you at your word, you get mad.

Seriously, though, I do have a point- if the speed is that big a deal, this is obviously not the vehicle for you.
You miss the point entirely, and to ad fuel to your shallow argument, if speed really didn't matter these days and the "new way of thinking" was about picking up MPG, then the diesel would be here right now, because the WKII hemi is really no more efficient than the old one. But it IS dragging around even more lard.
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  #38  
Old 08-09-2010, 08:49 PM
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Re: WK2 VS LR4 and 4 Runner in Motor Trend

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Originally Posted by Robert Palmer View Post
On another note here, I saw one of those new 4Runner's in traffic while going into the Lincoln Tunnel and I must say that thing is a beast next to my Jeep. Thing was mammoth.
Thankfully, we don't get them here
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  #39  
Old 08-09-2010, 09:12 PM
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Re: WK2 VS LR4 and 4 Runner in Motor Trend

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Originally Posted by Marlin View Post
You miss the point entirely, and to ad fuel to your shallow argument, if speed really didn't matter these days and the "new way of thinking" was about picking up MPG, then the diesel would be here right now, because the WKII hemi is really no more efficient than the old one. But it IS dragging around even more lard.
I'm not going to vouch for the particular pressures on the Australian market. Never been there, have no idea. But in the US, diesel just hasn't taken off. Sure, it's gained, but diesel fuel normally runs with enough of a premium price that the added efficiency numbers just aren't cost effective (especially when you count the added cost up front and the higher maintenance costs). 20% greater fuel efficiency means diddly when the fuel costs 20% more. The diesels in the previous generation Grand Cherokee and Commander just didn't get many takers. I wouldn't be surprised if a diesel is eventually brought forth for export markets, but for US markets there just isn't much point.

Rather, you can see the emphasis by noting all the Hemi badging that ISN'T on the V-8 equipped models. There's a concerted effort to not draw attention to the larger engine or to portray it as an upgrade. In the US, the sense Jeep is giving is that it's really only worthwhile if you want the towing ability. In other nations, things may be different, but here, now, that's how it is.

With the new US CAFE regulations, every MPG counts, and if tweaking the gearing or throttle response gets that at the cost of a second or so, then big whoop- to buyers here in the US right now, that's a worthy trade. This is also why the US based car magazines speak with one voice- the V-6 is unanimously preferred. In other nations with different pressures, this may be different, but Jeep is a US based company, and the vehicles are designed primarily for our market, and three miles to the gallon may not mean much to you Aussies, but here it may be the difference between being a top seller and stagnating on dealer lots. There's a big psychological step when the highway mileage drops below 20MPG on the US EPA cycle.

Disagree with me if you like. No skin off my neck. Go ahead and argue how 12MPG and 400HP for a 5.5sec 0-60 would be the bee's knees and sell like, well, whatever sells well in Australia. But here they'd just sit on the lot. Since the US market is larger, we're the ones who get catered to.

You'll just have to console yourself by noting that most of our GM cars are crap, and in order to get a decent Pontiac, we had to import the Holden and now we can't get them anymore.
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Old 08-09-2010, 09:44 PM
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Re: WK2 VS LR4 and 4 Runner in Motor Trend

CAFE regulations....Emissions....MPG....all useless bureaucratic BS!

Cows put out more emissions then all the petrol powered vehicles on the planet. Pets even more.

Australia f'n rocks! and they sell petrol in liters and it's damn expensive...converted to gallons it's like 8 dollars a gallon last time I was there.

Take away my performance and I'll just build my own.

The time we are currently in seems to remind me of another time in history...60's muscle car era...then the oil embargo hit and they made the pinto and other useless fuel efficient econo-box deathtrap crap. See a pinto roll by and your like wow what a POS...See a nice late 60's muscle car roll by and your like Hell yeah baby!

I'll take the "Hell yeah baby!"
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  #41  
Old 08-09-2010, 10:21 PM
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Re: WK2 VS LR4 and 4 Runner in Motor Trend

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Originally Posted by muzichio View Post
The article quotes quadra-lift on the overland they tested, but the photo in the article of the shifter and selec-terrain control from the test vehicle clearly doesn't show the lift controls. They are supposed to be to the right of the selec-terrain nob on Overlands that are QL equipped. The writer then goes on to mention how the air supension on the LR4 is better tuned and that the jeep had harsher impacts! Gee...wonder how that happened?
And in the data comparison chart on the last page it shows coil springs for the Overland and there is no mentioning of the Quadra-Drive II. Apples and Oranges?
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  #42  
Old 08-10-2010, 08:57 AM
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Exclamation Re: WK2 VS LR4 and 4 Runner in Motor Trend

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Originally Posted by boniomario View Post
...let's hope they can redeem themselves with the SRT edition to beat it's other rivals but doubt it though ....
Can you name a rival for a 5,000 lb SUV with no ground clearance and gumball tires??? How many of those BMWs can be driven off-road? I really like the SRT, but for what reason is it produced? Yes, street fast, but would you see it in an MT test of off-road prowess? People are quoting 330 hp here...the specs say 360, with 390 torque. Yes, that's down from 380 or so in other uses of the engine, but that's more about packaging in the Jeep.
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  #43  
Old 08-10-2010, 09:32 AM
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Re: WK2 VS LR4 and 4 Runner in Motor Trend

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Originally Posted by Escape View Post
CAFE regulations....Emissions....MPG....all useless bureaucratic BS!

Cows put out more emissions then all the petrol powered vehicles on the planet. Pets even more.

Australia f'n rocks! and they sell petrol in liters and it's damn expensive...converted to gallons it's like 8 dollars a gallon last time I was there.

Take away my performance and I'll just build my own.

The time we are currently in seems to remind me of another time in history...60's muscle car era...then the oil embargo hit and they made the pinto and other useless fuel efficient econo-box deathtrap crap. See a pinto roll by and your like wow what a POS...See a nice late 60's muscle car roll by and your like Hell yeah baby!

I'll take the "Hell yeah baby!"
Useless bureaucratic BS it may be, but as they saying goes, the rules may be stupid, arbitrary, and idiotic, but they are the rules, and God help you if you break them.

The US is a bit bizarre compared to Europe and Australia when it comes to fuel. Here, diesel has always been primarily a commercial fuel- big trucks and heavy equipment use it, so taxes tend to be higher. Gasoline tends to be primarily a consumer fuel, and our government has generally avoided punitive taxes on it. Fuel taxes may seem high to us, but they're a picnic compared to other places.

The result is the US uses gasoline; we end up exporting some of our diesel to Europe, Europe ends up exporting some of their gasoline to here. Furthermore, the refineries in each place are different; out of a given barrel of oil ours make more gasoline, European refineries try to make more diesel, so there are also supply and demand considerations.

The upshot: gasoline is cheaper here, and that ain't changing anytime soon.

As for performance vs. efficiency; it's a constant trade off. Automakers build vehicles to suit what they think will sell. Lately, here there's been a general move toward efficiency; once you have a vehicle in the sub 9.0 to 60mph range, a large number of people view that as good enough. 6.0 to 60 matters little when you're sitting in traffic; better to have a vehicle that is easier on fuel at that point.
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  #44  
Old 08-10-2010, 09:37 AM
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Re: WK2 VS LR4 and 4 Runner in Motor Trend

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Originally Posted by Jim Hef View Post
Can you name a rival for a 5,000 lb SUV with no ground clearance and gumball tires??? How many of those BMWs can be driven off-road? I really like the SRT, but for what reason is it produced? Yes, street fast, but would you see it in an MT test of off-road prowess? People are quoting 330 hp here...the specs say 360, with 390 torque. Yes, that's down from 380 or so in other uses of the engine, but that's more about packaging in the Jeep.
wait this is confusing what are we talking about here the 5.7L or the SRT8 ???

In any case, the land rover can go off road, we're not talking about the bmw, that car is junk from the beginning.

The main topic of this heated debate is that GC was way better than the land rover and now land rover has come around whooped GC's ass clear and simple. GC may crawl on rocks but the land rover can do the exact same thing.

I know there are many Jeep lovers here, "AMERICAN MADE!!!" yeah baby LOLOLOLOL

It's beyond patriotism or wearing american flag drawers and say you drive a Jeep. Land Rover has spanked the GC in all categories.

The price is only $10K more if you get the 7 seater option, if you stick to 5 seater option like the GC then the price is only different by $2-3K

Also something else to consider is that why on earth does Chrysler have a V8 engine that can only put out 3xx HP and not above and beyond 400 while maintaining it at 5.xL's ??? that right there baffles me and shows that Chrysler is no where near producing efficient cars that can pack a punch. I'm not going to even get into the whole debate over modern day V8 engines need to have more than 400HP with modern tech, I really can care less what the vehicle is used for, whether to tow a boat or to take grandma across town. With todays tech Chrysler is holding back for the crowd that is not able to purchase the SRT line, or still have towing capabilities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Technosavant View Post
While there's no such thing as "too fast," there's certainly such thing as "fast enough." The complaint is indeed about the 0-60; that's what the griping is about, since the GC catches up after that. Obviously Jeep decided there wasn't much call to keep the speed edge. Times have changed. We no longer live in a day where absolute speed matters, good enough is just fine when you pick up a few more MPG in trade. That's the new way of thinking.
I really hate to say this but yes HP matters !!! Whether you are going 0-60 or towing some big ass boat or for any other matter.

My main disappointment with Chrysler is that they have produced a phucking 5.7L engine that only puts out 3xx HP !!! Seriously???? 5.7L engine and that's the max efficiency ur gonna get out of that, that is a waste of engine, gas, and $$$ Chrysler needs to get with the times and start making 5.xx engines that can crank out more instead of increasing the cubic displacement to make up for the lack of ballz

and if ur really worried bout having better MPG's to sell ur car, give me a break live in Europe or some other place where equivalent of 1 gallon of gas is about $10 !!!

We live in a place where gas is abundant and cheap so consumers really not need to complain unless they've seen the other side, on top of that don't buy a Jeep if ur worried about MPG's and if ur really worried bout MPG's and saving money then don't haul a freaking boat cuz u could have used that money for something better LOLOL

point being Americans bitch about MPG's when they have no clue of what people from other countries pay for gas ... and like stated before don't drive a Jeep if ur worried bout MPG's
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  #45  
Old 08-10-2010, 10:31 AM
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Re: WK2 VS LR4 and 4 Runner in Motor Trend

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Originally Posted by boniomario View Post
My main disappointment with Chrysler is that they have produced a phucking 5.7L engine that only puts out 3xx HP !!! Seriously???? 5.7L engine and that's the max efficiency ur gonna get out of that, that is a waste of engine, gas, and $$$ Chrysler needs to get with the times and start making 5.xx engines that can crank out more instead of increasing the cubic displacement to make up for the lack of ballz

and if ur really worried bout having better MPG's to sell ur car, give me a break live in Europe or some other place where equivalent of 1 gallon of gas is about $10 !!!

We live in a place where gas is abundant and cheap so consumers really not need to complain unless they've seen the other side, on top of that don't buy a Jeep if ur worried about MPG's and if ur really worried bout MPG's and saving money then don't haul a freaking boat cuz u could have used that money for something better LOLOL

point being Americans bitch about MPG's when they have no clue of what people from other countries pay for gas ... and like stated before don't drive a Jeep if ur worried bout MPG's
No argument here that the 5.7 Hemi is by no means an impressive engine. It just wasn't that wonderful an engine even at its introduction- better than the Magnum series it replaced, but by no means competitive with what GM has done with their LS series and Ford is way out in front with the Ti-VCT "Coyote" engine. They're going to need to replace it to stay competitive.

As for your comments about efficiency: whatever, dude. I'm telling you what the market is doing. Ever since gasoline prices ran about $4/gallon a few years back, people have paid attention to the thirst of their vehicles. While prices have eased (and are cheaper than other nations), people still care, and with the state of government regulations, those few miles per gallon may make the difference regarding penalties assessed for failure to meet standards. You might not care. Some other power hungry folks might not care. But the executives and an overwhelming majority of the market cares. If they want the Grand Cherokee to sell, it can't have significantly worse fuel economy than the competition. You may be willing to write off the buyers who care about such things as "non Jeep people," but I guarantee you this- if Jeep loses those customers, they no longer can afford to make anything, even the Wrangler (the "one true Jeep" to hear some tell it).
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  #46  
Old 08-10-2010, 11:18 AM
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Re: WK2 VS LR4 and 4 Runner in Motor Trend

you got a point there with the fuel economy ... however it's a Jeep and the whole engine efficiency plays into that factor too ... GM has made hybrids of their bigger vehicles that can still tow, yet Chrysler is playing the catch up game LOL
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Old 08-10-2010, 12:40 PM
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Re: WK2 VS LR4 and 4 Runner in Motor Trend

this is hilarious.

I am going to chime in now

I presonally feel it is ridiculous that a LR4 is faster in a straight line to 60 than the new GC. My parents have owned 3 Range Rovers (1998, 2000 and 2002) and while the fit/finish/rolling/off-road was great, the performance always left you wanting more. The 02' was starting to get better with the BMW 4.4 v8, but it was still way underpowered IMO. We also owned a early-model discovery (1995 I believe)...I was young (11-13) so I thought the Disc. was the best thing since sliced bread. I did not care about performance as I was riding in the jump-seats with my buddies with our own "sky-view"! Now if I had to drive that on a dialy I am sure I would have felt differently, but it is amazing how certain things gain/lose importance as you get older.

Jeeps are not "out-of-the-box" 0-60 monsters (minus the SRT8 of course), but to me it makes little to no sense to increase the weight of the vehicle and de-tune a 5.7 that pushes 390hp in the Ram. And to top it off, the LR4 weighs even more than the GC!! My hats off to LR for finally stepping up their game. I drove the new 2011 NA RR Sport and wow they really have improved their power...

Now Omar you can take a long walk off a short bridge. Yes the BMW is horrible off-road (from what I have read, and with the 20's and body kit, etc)...BUT my parents just got a 2011 X5 with the sport package and the 8-speed tranny with the turbo-diesel. When they first told me I was bummed...but It has an amazing on-road ride, is poised and comfortable, and has a little pep in it's step. I have never liked the X5's, but I must say I would trade my GC for it, if offered, because it is better than my Jeep (slower yes, but fit and finish wise it is in a whole nuther world). The wheels are amazing, great stance, comfy interior and a lot of cool electronic features. It is a perfect car for my Mom! Now if I had to pay for it I would buy my Jeep all day long and keep the $15-20K in my pocket! I would smoke it off the line, the GC feels smaller and more nimble...and I can do a lot of the work/mods myself!

We all want different things out of our SUV's, so I find it interesting that others bash eachother about their wants/needs/desires of a SUV. We all have different approaches, like different things, and value features or performance differently!

Some of you WK2 owners need to not get defensive about your GC being slow, because at the momnet it is. Argue all you want about the off-road improvements, interior (which IMO is sexy), etc...but it is heavier and slower now, and that is something guys like me will factor in since my 2wd 5.7 is pulling low 6's 0-60 while getting 20+ mpg's on the highway!
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  #48  
Old 08-10-2010, 12:54 PM
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Re: WK2 VS LR4 and 4 Runner in Motor Trend

oh my........
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