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Old 08-08-2013, 09:18 PM
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Re: Good automotive schools in MA?

Not sure where your located in MA, but check out the NH Community College, formerly NHVTC, in Nashua.
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Old 08-08-2013, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by 2005JGC View Post
Ok here is some of the great things about the industry.

-You get to pay for your own tools to fix other peoples cars. Between boxes and tools I have probably 25-35k in tools and storage and I am just scratching the surface. When a tool breaks, I get to pay to have it fixed or replace it (or obviously repair it myself).

- The pay is NOT what your friend makes... PERIOD! There are some super techs, I think there were 2 that were right near or just above 6 figures at the dealer I worked for, and it was because they were assholes that stole all the good work and were too "busy" to do the crap everyone else was stuck doing... That or they flushed every fluid from every car that they touched needed or not. Generally people that are actually good techs get railroaded because they are handed the crappy nightmare cars to figure out because billy isn't smart enough to do it but for some reason he makes more than you by the end of the year. There are some people that land in the perfect environment with an employer that respects their ability and pays as such but typically... ESPECIALLY in a dealer, where the owner who is usually in bed with sales and couldn't give two craps if service needs adjustments to look out for the smart techs that are keeping his service department alive. Having said that, I will say it is also not impossible to make a living, there were some that were pulling 60-65k.

- Some customers think your a lying, cheating, thieving douche bag because their car broke and its going to cost a lot to fix. The check engine lamp comes on 2 weeks after a repair and they are in the front office SCREAMING that we didn't fix it when its a different failure, different code and different system of the car entirely.

- Some customers know more than you, Thanks to the Google and forums, and their own "knowledge" they know your lying, or your diagnosis is not correct.

- True story, a guy came in with a commander one day with a horrible brake pulsation, I measured all the rotors and all had thickness variation that required them to be machined to repair his concern... if your familiar with the ebrake on the WK/XK it uses shoes in the hat of the rear rotors... this guy just about burst an artery screaming and yelling at the adviser, saying we were just stealing from him, and that he pulled up on the ebrake and knew the rear brakes didn't need to be machined because there was no pulsation using the ebrake... sorry asshat, but two COMPLETELY separate systems and areas of the rotor, but come get your car because I don't want to touch it anyway.

- Benefits SUCK, which can basically be said for many/most private sector jobs. SOME employers are amazing but those that really take care of their employees KEEP their employees so its difficult to get a job there.

- Flat rate... you have a guy in the office putting numbers together and talking to customers, a guy who couldn't point out where the battery is under a hood. But whatever his magic fingers find on the computer is what you get paid, right or wrong. Any time there is an abnormal job, a broken bolt, or rust issues, you should be paid more to cover the additional time but at least where I have worked it is like pulling teeth to get this additional pay, between the writer not being comfortable asking, to the customer who doesn't want to pay a penny more than the quoted cost.

Yes, this is horribly one sided, I have worked for 2 shops of which neither really took care of its techs so I am a little callous. Is this the way the entire industry is... not completely, but you WILL deal with some of these.

I have a neighbor who needs a ride to get his vehicle from his mechanic so no proof reading or editing... sorry... Feel free to ask if you have any questions.
I love the advice. Thank you.. Here is my response, but im kind of pretending im a little closed minded, just to instigate more info, haha..

One good thing about school is ill get a decent snap on tool kit warrantied for life, but i know ill probably need more than that..
I totally expect like $10 an hour for a few years, haha. Nbd to me, im poor anyways.
Sounds similar to the amount of completion in culinary..
Customers ALWAYS suck! Believe me, I know..
Benefits are nbd, im poor therefore i have masshealth :/

That SUCKS about dickhead computer flat rate quoting guys... That shouldnt even be allowed in my opinion.
Sounds like you gotta get in there and talk to them sometimes.. Is that even allowed?

What do you think?
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Old 08-08-2013, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by nek121328 View Post
Not sure where your located in MA, but check out the NH Community College, formerly NHVTC, in Nashua.
Kinda far.. Im in waltham..
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Old 08-08-2013, 11:37 PM
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Re: Good automotive schools in MA?

Now, I'm not in the business whatsoever, beyond being a customer.

As it was explained to me by a mechanic friend, at least in CA, was that mechanics are effectively paid by the job, and the pay for the job is the number of hours some book says the job should take. That there's some standard that says "shock replacement for Ford Pinto, N hours". Whether the number comes from the factory, or a 3rd party, or what, I don't know.

Then, the mechanic is paid for the job, effectively regardless of how long the task takes them. If book says 2 hours, the mechanic is paid for 2 hours, whether it took the mechanic 1 hour or 4 hours. This aligns with the complaints of 2005JGC of not being compensated for tasks that go over due to circumstances beyond his control.

My friend always liked some particular job that everyone else hated, simply because he was experienced with and was able to do the job far under the estimated time. So, as a contrived example, if it was a 1 hour job, and he was able to do it in 45 minutes, he would be able to do 10 jobs in 8 hrs, rather than the normal 8. So, he would get paid 10 hours for 8 hours of actual work on his part.

As an outsider, I appreciated this system on several levels.

One, it potentially gives the consumer a base line for a task no matter where you took the car. "Book says X hours, we charge D dollars per hour for labor". Versus shop A says "Oh, that's Q hours" while B says "That's Z hours". Obviously this relies on the idea that each shop is proposing the same procedure. But if the shops routinely work from this standard, then that helps level the playing field even for a naive consumer. (All based on the ethics of the shop, naturally.)

Two, I felt is was a clever way for mechanics of different skill levels to be fairly compensated. By being paid for the job, not counting clock time, a skilled mechanic would cost the same as a novice mechanic. If normally a novice mechanic took longer, then, dollars earned per hour of clock time would be less than a skilled mechanic that was able to work faster. To a point this allowed mechanics to work to their potential. It also helps motivate employers to hire novice mechanics in the first place, since their exposure is the same, at least financially. It also gives "unbiased" benchmark to help rate the performance of a mechanic.

The down side for mechanics, naturally, they have no control over what tasks are assigned to them. This also speaks to the point about "getting the good jobs". That may be a benefit of seniority at a shop: first pick of open work orders.

But, overall, on paper, it sounds like a good system.

The downside, is that barring consequences, it favors time over quality. My mechanic friend mentioned specifically about a BMW 8 cylinder, where 4 of the cylinders were very difficult to reach. So, for a spark plug replacement job, one mechanic simply didn't replace the other 4. Unsupervised, he's motivated to lower his time to increase his pay. So, safe guards need to be put in place to police the mechanics.

Finally, what are the barriers for skilled mechanics to open their own shops? Spend 5-10 years at a couple of dealerships, and then go independent? Obviously there's the costs incurred for going independent (building, location, regulations, etc.), as well as the motivation and aptitude to manage all of the business parts as well as the mechanic duties (not all folks are suited to it).

But everyone wants to know "a good mechanic", and "good mechanics" are basically at independent shops because you can go and know that Frank is going to work on the car, and stand there in his blue overalls, listening to you, following along and nodding as he wipes his greasy hands off on one of those red shop rags.

So, it always seemed to me that the next step for a "good mechanic" was to break free, start doing work on the side, and open their own place. Do shops work like hair salons? Hair salons have stations, but the hair dressers are effectively independent. They can get random walk ins or they can drive their own business, working with referrals, repeat business, whatever. I don't know if they pay a flat rent per month or a percentage of the work as well. But I can see an independent shop sort of working like that.

One thing's for sure, dealership or independent, we're going to be needing mechanics for some time.
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Old 08-09-2013, 12:43 AM
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Re: Good automotive schools in MA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AudreyHell View Post
I love the advice. Thank you.. Here is my response, but im kind of pretending im a little closed minded, just to instigate more info, haha..

One good thing about school is ill get a decent snap on tool kit warrantied for life, but i know ill probably need more than that..
I totally expect like $10 an hour for a few years, haha. Nbd to me, im poor anyways.
Sounds similar to the amount of completion in culinary..
Customers ALWAYS suck! Believe me, I know..
Benefits are nbd, im poor therefore i have masshealth :/

That SUCKS about dickhead computer flat rate quoting guys... That shouldnt even be allowed in my opinion.
Sounds like you gotta get in there and talk to them sometimes.. Is that even allowed?

What do you think?
Trust me, I bought more tools than anyone else in my class while I was in school and HIGHLY suggest ALL who do an automotive program buy all they can while its cheap. That said they are still VERY expensive. Many senior techs have upwards of 100k dollars in tools. Considering if a tech bought the new snapon scan tool the verus its like 12k dollars off the truck. Many Master series boxes are in the neighborhood of 10k dollars.

Also there is no "probably" about it, you will NEVER be able to make money without many more tools than what are included in the generic auto program kit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by whartung View Post
Now, I'm not in the business whatsoever, beyond being a customer.

As it was explained to me by a mechanic friend, at least in CA, was that mechanics are effectively paid by the job, and the pay for the job is the number of hours some book says the job should take. That there's some standard that says "shock replacement for Ford Pinto, N hours". Whether the number comes from the factory, or a 3rd party, or what, I don't know.

Then, the mechanic is paid for the job, effectively regardless of how long the task takes them. If book says 2 hours, the mechanic is paid for 2 hours, whether it took the mechanic 1 hour or 4 hours. This aligns with the complaints of 2005JGC of not being compensated for tasks that go over due to circumstances beyond his control.

My friend always liked some particular job that everyone else hated, simply because he was experienced with and was able to do the job far under the estimated time. So, as a contrived example, if it was a 1 hour job, and he was able to do it in 45 minutes, he would be able to do 10 jobs in 8 hrs, rather than the normal 8. So, he would get paid 10 hours for 8 hours of actual work on his part.

As an outsider, I appreciated this system on several levels.

One, it potentially gives the consumer a base line for a task no matter where you took the car. "Book says X hours, we charge D dollars per hour for labor". Versus shop A says "Oh, that's Q hours" while B says "That's Z hours". Obviously this relies on the idea that each shop is proposing the same procedure. But if the shops routinely work from this standard, then that helps level the playing field even for a naive consumer. (All based on the ethics of the shop, naturally.)

Two, I felt is was a clever way for mechanics of different skill levels to be fairly compensated. By being paid for the job, not counting clock time, a skilled mechanic would cost the same as a novice mechanic. If normally a novice mechanic took longer, then, dollars earned per hour of clock time would be less than a skilled mechanic that was able to work faster. To a point this allowed mechanics to work to their potential. It also helps motivate employers to hire novice mechanics in the first place, since their exposure is the same, at least financially. It also gives "unbiased" benchmark to help rate the performance of a mechanic.

The down side for mechanics, naturally, they have no control over what tasks are assigned to them. This also speaks to the point about "getting the good jobs". That may be a benefit of seniority at a shop: first pick of open work orders.

But, overall, on paper, it sounds like a good system.

The downside, is that barring consequences, it favors time over quality. My mechanic friend mentioned specifically about a BMW 8 cylinder, where 4 of the cylinders were very difficult to reach. So, for a spark plug replacement job, one mechanic simply didn't replace the other 4. Unsupervised, he's motivated to lower his time to increase his pay. So, safe guards need to be put in place to police the mechanics.

Finally, what are the barriers for skilled mechanics to open their own shops? Spend 5-10 years at a couple of dealerships, and then go independent? Obviously there's the costs incurred for going independent (building, location, regulations, etc.), as well as the motivation and aptitude to manage all of the business parts as well as the mechanic duties (not all folks are suited to it).

But everyone wants to know "a good mechanic", and "good mechanics" are basically at independent shops because you can go and know that Frank is going to work on the car, and stand there in his blue overalls, listening to you, following along and nodding as he wipes his greasy hands off on one of those red shop rags.

So, it always seemed to me that the next step for a "good mechanic" was to break free, start doing work on the side, and open their own place. Do shops work like hair salons? Hair salons have stations, but the hair dressers are effectively independent. They can get random walk ins or they can drive their own business, working with referrals, repeat business, whatever. I don't know if they pay a flat rent per month or a percentage of the work as well. But I can see an independent shop sort of working like that.

One thing's for sure, dealership or independent, we're going to be needing mechanics for some time.
Flatrate was designed for customers for many of the reasons you had listed... Just know that rarely will you get identical numbers from shop to shop, its a time guide not a time god... and this means a couple things. First, there is not a given time for every nut and bolt and every repair... case in point, I have some side work in my garage right now that is a Honda, with among other things has plugged EGR ports, there is not a "disassemble intake manifold and clean egr ports" in the labor time guide. Some numbers are just 100% estimated. Second, sometimes a tech has performed a repair and knows the time is absolutely ridiculous and completely unrealistic so then the book time will be modified.
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  #18  
Old 08-09-2013, 12:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2005JGC View Post

Trust me, I bought more tools than anyone else in my class while I was in school and HIGHLY suggest ALL who do an automotive program buy all they can while its cheap. That said they are still VERY expensive. Many senior techs have upwards of 100k dollars in tools. Considering if a tech bought the new snapon scan tool the verus its like 12k dollars off the truck. Many Master series boxes are in the neighborhood of 10k dollars.

Also there is no "probably" about it, you will NEVER be able to make money without many more tools than what are included in the generic auto program kit.

Flatrate was designed for customers for many of the reasons you had listed... Just know that rarely will you get identical numbers from shop to shop, its a time guide not a time god... and this means a couple things. First, there is not a given time for every nut and bolt and every repair... case in point, I have some side work in my garage right now that is a Honda, with among other things has plugged EGR ports, there is not a "disassemble intake manifold and clean egr ports" in the labor time guide. Some numbers are just 100% estimated. Second, sometimes a tech has performed a repair and knows the time is absolutely ridiculous and completely unrealistic so then the book time will be modified.
Why are you trying to talk me out of it so much?
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Old 08-09-2013, 05:03 AM
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Re: Good automotive schools in MA?

Well, based on my conversations with my brother in law (25-year Ford master mechanic in Alexandria, VA) 2005JGC is trying to paint a realistic picture.

It is not always true that the mechanic knows more than the customer, though. Case in point:
My 2007 JGC had/has a driveline pulsation at around 40MPH, which becomes a very low growl at 70MPH. I'm pretty sure the problem is the left front half shaft, which is running off-center.. at any rate, it is a wheel-speed vibration and not a driveshaft-speed vibration (which would be about 3x higher pitch).. It has the lifetime powertrain warranty, so off to the dealer she goes.

"Can't be the half shaft, that would never cause this problem. We think it is the rear driveshaft."

Hey, knock yourself out, it's under warranty.

two weeks later, new driveshaft installed. MUCH WORSE. NOW I have a new vibration at driveshaft speed. Clearly the new driveshaft either needs to be re-indexed or is just plain out of balance. Mechanic and service manager agree it is much worse.

Their solution: "We're going to replace the front driveshaft."
Huh? aren't you going to fix the problem you created with the rear driveshaft first?
"No, we think the new front driveshaft will fix that problem"

WTFFF?

I'm pretty sure they are eventually going to completely destroy my vehicle.

...tom
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Old 08-09-2013, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomk View Post
Well, based on my conversations with my brother in law (25-year Ford master mechanic in Alexandria, VA) 2005JGC is trying to paint a realistic picture.

It is not always true that the mechanic knows more than the customer, though. Case in point:
My 2007 JGC had/has a driveline pulsation at around 40MPH, which becomes a very low growl at 70MPH. I'm pretty sure the problem is the left front half shaft, which is running off-center.. at any rate, it is a wheel-speed vibration and not a driveshaft-speed vibration (which would be about 3x higher pitch).. It has the lifetime powertrain warranty, so off to the dealer she goes.

"Can't be the half shaft, that would never cause this problem. We think it is the rear driveshaft."

Hey, knock yourself out, it's under warranty.

two weeks later, new driveshaft installed. MUCH WORSE. NOW I have a new vibration at driveshaft speed. Clearly the new driveshaft either needs to be re-indexed or is just plain out of balance. Mechanic and service manager agree it is much worse.

Their solution: "We're going to replace the front driveshaft."
Huh? aren't you going to fix the problem you created with the rear driveshaft first?
"No, we think the new front driveshaft will fix that problem"

WTFFF?

I'm pretty sure they are eventually going to completely destroy my vehicle.

...tom
Customers are also more familiar with the symptoms of the issue, helping a mechanic with their diagnosis
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Old 08-09-2013, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2005JGC View Post

Trust me, I bought more tools than anyone else in my class while I was in school and HIGHLY suggest ALL who do an automotive program buy all they can while its cheap. That said they are still VERY expensive. Many senior techs have upwards of 100k dollars in tools. Considering if a tech bought the new snapon scan tool the verus its like 12k dollars off the truck. Many Master series boxes are in the neighborhood of 10k dollars.

Also there is no "probably" about it, you will NEVER be able to make money without many more tools than what are included in the generic auto program kit.

Flatrate was designed for customers for many of the reasons you had listed... Just know that rarely will you get identical numbers from shop to shop, its a time guide not a time god... and this means a couple things. First, there is not a given time for every nut and bolt and every repair... case in point, I have some side work in my garage right now that is a Honda, with among other things has plugged EGR ports, there is not a "disassemble intake manifold and clean egr ports" in the labor time guide. Some numbers are just 100% estimated. Second, sometimes a tech has performed a repair and knows the time is absolutely ridiculous and completely unrealistic so then the book time will be modified.
Also, I say the words "probably" and "assume" only to clear the air that i recognize i dont know the business yet.
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Old 08-09-2013, 08:41 PM
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Re: Good automotive schools in MA?

I mean nothing personal about you, I will say it is difficult for anyone to both learn how to fix cars and also learn how to make money doing it... and that is not even considering your a female in a male dominated industry.

I respect your background, I dont know how ANYONE could think that working in a kitchen would be fun and exciting, being flooded with orders, over a hot stove, constantly being yelled at and rushed, not a fun or easy industry.

Tom hit the nail on the head (thank you). I am just being real, if you think I am trying to run you off, your mistaken. You make the decision, if it goes great, awesome! If it does not, your strong, you being ready to try something else after 10 years in another industry, it wont be the end of the world and you can fall back on your previous career or try something else... Good luck!
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Old 08-10-2013, 05:09 PM
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I mean nothing personal about you, I will say it is difficult for anyone to both learn how to fix cars and also learn how to make money doing it... and that is not even considering your a female in a male dominated industry.

I respect your background, I dont know how ANYONE could think that working in a kitchen would be fun and exciting, being flooded with orders, over a hot stove, constantly being yelled at and rushed, not a fun or easy industry.

Tom hit the nail on the head (thank you). I am just being real, if you think I am trying to run you off, your mistaken. You make the decision, if it goes great, awesome! If it does not, your strong, you being ready to try something else after 10 years in another industry, it wont be the end of the world and you can fall back on your previous career or try something else... Good luck!
Thank you
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Old 08-11-2013, 09:01 AM
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Re: Good automotive schools in MA?

I'm going to jump in again. It seems like you're considering several different trades here--maybe the school is suggesting paths? Try taking the schools out of the equation and consider what it is you want to "do".

In today's economy, just being in the right trade is not going to win you fame and fortune by itself. The people who excel in service jobs (like all crafts) don't necessarily cut corners, but do excel at time management, cherry-picking jobs and, yes, upselling the customer to additional services. None of that is evil, but it isn't going to win you friends among your co-workers, as shown in some of the previous posts.

If you don't see yourself in that, make sure you're doing a job you like "doing". The workplace is always going to have its downside--that's the nature of economics. But if you like "doing" something, throwing yourself into a task you enjoy is a great way to shut out a less-than-perfect workplace.

Good luck!
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