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  #1345  
Old 09-05-2016, 01:28 PM
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re: 2017 Wrangler JK Information Thread

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Originally Posted by WaltA View Post
You sound like the perfect Saturn customer. Unfortunately, at the end of the day, that sales model didn't work well enough to maintain the practice.
Nah. Saturn vehicles never appealed to me and that was a scam anyway. I know how to use the system to pay as close to lowest price, and Id ont interact with sales people in ways that they can exploit their advantagee. I also dont finance through dealers, trade-in with them. I just put it out to bid. I also have access to JD powers internals so I can see their virtual real time estimates of the time on lot which is the chief unknown variable.

I do feel bad for the large majority who do not and get taken.

New car buying is a more than 3/4 centry old dinosaur model, while other forms of retail have gone though multiple revolutions, leaving several generations of entire models in the dust. Small stores to department stores to strip malls to malls to big box/category killers to online and sharing, models have occurred while only due to intense lobbying creating a protected artificial system we have this weird protected and artificial franchise dealership model that would blow away in a minute if not for obtaining pay for play laws that make natural evolution for all practical purposes illegal.

The system works ok for people like me, who knwo what they want before requesting competitive bids from dealers. I commoditize the product, making all variables equal except price. But for those who don't, there is a high variability in what they will pay.

Again I don't blame the workers at a dealership including sales personnel

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  #1346  
Old 09-05-2016, 01:42 PM
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re: 2017 Wrangler JK Information Thread

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I also dont finance through dealers, ...
Why?

My dealer was able to get a local commercial bank to cut their public/advertised auto loan rate almost in half. That put it even less than either CU's I belong to, could offer.

Why not finance through the dealer, if it will cost you less?
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  #1347  
Old 09-05-2016, 02:00 PM
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re: 2017 Wrangler JK Information Thread

No matter what kind of a great deal someone may get there will be someone who claim they got a better deal. People reach a point where they get wrapped up in getting the "deal".
I don't care if I get the best price, just a good price. I have other things to do with my time trying to pit dealer against dealer so I can save another $100.

I've seen people buy vehicles they really didn't want just because the "deal" was so sweet. Six months later they are trying to sell or trade something they don't even like.


Trade in's? Now that I live in a state that charges roughly 7.5% sales tax it will most likely make sense to go the trade in route down the line. Sales tax on my 2017 was roughly $2,600 and I didn't have a trade in. But if I did the tax amount would be offset by the value of the trade in. So sometimes it might make sense to shop for the best trade value.
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  #1348  
Old 09-05-2016, 03:59 PM
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People reach a point where they get wrapped up in getting the "deal".
I don't care if I get the best price, just a good price. I have other things to do with my time trying to pit dealer against dealer so I can save another $100.
I think this is a great attitude in regards to a new vehicle purchase... not to mention a bit more stress free also.
One thing I'd like to add when soliciting offers from different dealers is distance. Some will go for an offer that's a hundred or so dollars cheaper from a dealer even though said dealership is a hundred miles away. Down the road, when something goes wrong they then bring their jeep into their neighborhood dealer looking for them to make it right. While any dealer is obligated to honor warrantee repairs... there's something to be said for developing a rapport with a place that's willing to go to bat with Chrysler for you if the need be. I'd rather travel that hundred miles or so to give my business to someone with an outstanding service department and reputation than to someone who's willing to shave a few bucks off the price.
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  #1349  
Old 09-05-2016, 04:11 PM
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re: 2017 Wrangler JK Information Thread

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Down the road, when something goes wrong they then bring their jeep into their neighborhood dealer looking for them to make it right. While any dealer is obligated to honor warrantee repairs... there's something to be said for developing a rapport with a place that's willing to go to bat with Chrysler for you if the need be.
I'll also mention about the "extras" the neighborhood dealer can offer, like a loaner vehicle. Jeep's warranty doesn't include a loaner, but some dealers will offer you one, if you're their purchase customer too.
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  #1350  
Old 09-05-2016, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderjet View Post

Trade in's? Now that I live in a state that charges roughly 7.5% sales tax it will most likely make sense to go the trade in route down the line. Sales tax on my 2017 was roughly $2,600 and I didn't have a trade in. But if I did the tax amount would be offset by the value of the trade in. So sometimes it might make sense to shop for the best trade value.
Unless you live in one of the five states that charges you tax on the full amount of the new car regardless if you trade in a car or not.
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  #1351  
Old 09-05-2016, 08:48 PM
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re: 2017 Wrangler JK Information Thread

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Originally Posted by WaltA View Post
Why?
My dealer was able to get a local commercial bank to cut their public/advertised auto loan rate almost in half. That put it even less than either CU's I belong to, could offer.
Why not finance through the dealer, if it will cost you less?
For two reasons.
a) the less variables and complexity the less you pay becuase you increase your negotiating power when you commoditize a purchase (force all sellers of that to equal product. commiditizning a purchase is the way to pay less the great majority of the time, otherwise you cannot create a favorable game theory bidding conflict among the sellers

b) Because study after study shows people underestimate what they are really paying on loans and don't quantify loan terms very well, ie dont have a full understanding of discount, points, origination and other variables. That is why dealers tend to make more money not less money from customers who finance.
Think of it this way. I think we can agree that whatever portion of households buy new vehicles, but probably a much smaller proportion understand loan loan terms. There are ways to to make 3% loans more expensive than 4% ones.


The fact is the most stress free way for anyone of means to deal with dealerships is to commmoditize and create a competition among dealers for your business.
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  #1352  
Old 09-05-2016, 09:00 PM
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re: 2017 Wrangler JK Information Thread

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Originally Posted by WaltA View Post
I'll also mention about the "extras" the neighborhood dealer can offer, like a loaner vehicle. Jeep's warranty doesn't include a loaner, but some dealers will offer you one, if you're their purchase customer too.
In my experience they are not more or less likely to do that if you are a purchase customer or not. Service departments compete forward. They make money on warranty work. I had recall work done in Virginia on my 13 year old Pennsylvania bought honda and got a loaner. I simply asked service managers of the two places i called what they would do for me. (they both offer loaners).

Perhaps one variable that is different between you and I is concentration of dealerships. I have for example seven Honda dealerships within 25 minutes of me. I have 10 jeep dealerships withing 40 miles.
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  #1353  
Old 09-05-2016, 09:23 PM
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re: 2017 Wrangler JK Information Thread

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Originally Posted by SeaJay View Post
One thing I'd like to add when soliciting offers from different dealers is distance. Some will go for an offer that's a hundred or so dollars cheaper from a dealer even though said dealership is a hundred miles away. Down the road, when something goes wrong they then bring their jeep into their neighborhood dealer looking for them to make it right. While any dealer is obligated to honor warrantee repairs... there's something to be said for developing a rapport with a place that's willing to go to bat with Chrysler for you if the need be. I'd rather travel that hundred miles or so to give my business to someone with an outstanding service department and reputation than to someone who's willing to shave a few bucks off the price.
a huge number of people live in areas where a dozen alternatives will be within 100 miles away and probably more than six or seven within 40.

It is also a common misconception that service departments will treat you better on warranty if you bough the car there. They dont care whatsoever.

Car dealerships service departments make money on repairs and warranty work than from new car sales. and that that ratio is increasing in favor of repair and warrant profits every year in a 20 year trend Every service department wants your business, warranty work etc

Lastly paying $1,000 less for a vehicle is not shaving a few bucks (and new car purchases of the same exact car and trim vary by more like 10% or at least $2,500). to pay more for no reason other than on the hope of getting better warranty coverage is not supported by the facts.

A service department may welll give you better warranty service if you do you other service there as well. They dont give a rat's pititouty if you bought your car there
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  #1354  
Old 09-05-2016, 11:17 PM
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re: 2017 Wrangler JK Information Thread

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Originally Posted by Diogen View Post
For two reasons.
a) the less variables and complexity the less you pay becuase you increase your negotiating power when you commoditize a purchase (force all sellers of that to equal product. commiditizning a purchase is the way to pay less the great majority of the time, otherwise you cannot create a favorable game theory bidding conflict among the sellers

b) Because study after study shows people underestimate what they are really paying on loans and don't quantify loan terms very well, ie dont have a full understanding of discount, points, origination and other variables. That is why dealers tend to make more money not less money from customers who finance.
Think of it this way. I think we can agree that whatever portion of households buy new vehicles, but probably a much smaller proportion understand loan loan terms. There are ways to to make 3% loans more expensive than 4% ones.


The fact is the most stress free way for anyone of means to deal with dealerships is to commmoditize and create a competition among dealers for your business.
It doesn't take a trained monkey to calculate all the interest and any other potential charges for a car loan then compare the total charges against another prospective loan. I financed car loans for about 35 years but now have the means to pay cash. But when I financed it was pretty easy to read the contract and the truth in lending facts and the total charge for acquiring the loan and carrying it for the full term. About the only "hidden" thing a borrower needs to watch out for is prepayment issues. I never once ran across a car loan that required points be paid or any other fees other than interest charges.


Not sure why you appear to have such a condescending attitude but believe it or not, some of us actually know our way around a car dealership.
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Old 09-06-2016, 05:28 AM
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re: 2017 Wrangler JK Information Thread

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Originally Posted by Thunderjet View Post
It doesn't take a trained monkey to calculate all the interest and any other potential charges for a car loan then compare the total charges against another prospective loan.
Actually a house mortgage is easier to figure out per dollar borrowed. Car loans and financing are typically as or more complex more likely to be more costly than immediately apparent, especially those originated at dealerships.

And no one is being condescending since everyone is affected.

Car dealerships make profits on loans, People who buy with loans from car leaderships pay more. That is a fact. Studies at debt,org show that car loans from dealers cost the most.

The idea that generally a car loan at a dealership is better than one at a bank, CU, or better yet home equity so you can deduct, is just not supported by the facts. Car dealers prefer people who take loans originated by them because it increases their profit (increases buyer's net and relative costs)

The studies also show accurately assessing impact and actual cost of consumer debt is something a huge majority of people fail at.
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  #1356  
Old 09-06-2016, 05:35 AM
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re: 2017 Wrangler JK Information Thread

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Originally Posted by SoCalRubicon View Post
Unless you live in one of the five states that charges you tax on the full amount of the new car regardless if you trade in a car or not.
Indeed, Or besides those five, including California, the large number of states where, contrary to what dealers will tell you, you can sell to ANYONE within 45 to 180 days and get the same sales tax reduction.

DFA - Sales Tax Credit for Sale of Used Vehicle

http://dor.mo.gov/forms/426.pdf
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