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  #61  
Old 06-22-2016, 12:03 AM
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Re: Actor Anton Yelchin killed by Grand Cherokee in Neutral

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Originally Posted by Nitemare3219 View Post
Seems unnecessary. Electric cars absolutely make noise - road noise from the tires. That is the majority of noise you hear from an oncoming vehicle, especially at a distance - think of a highway. You can hear it a LONG ways away at night - you aren't hearing car engines, you're hearing the road noise from tires. Maybe at VERY low speeds you might not notice an electric vehicle...



Not really man. Glad you and the family ended up not having a bad situation unfold. The shifter is just a bad design.



Yep, I've been saying this for months as well and some people get particularly defensive and want to start name-calling and strongly defending the design. It's a shit design. There should be zero question as to what gear you are in when operating a vehicle, especially a 2+ ton vehicle. More times than not I have made a mistake when shifting due to being in a HURRY more than anything else. This has frequently happened to me placing the car from drive to reverse (I ALWAYS back into parking spots). What typically happens thereafter is me sitting there having to figure out what gear I am in, and if I am still holding the shifter and it is halfway between actuation points, how much softly to push the lever so I don't end up in park instead of reverse. Then compound this by the fact that if you are in neutral, you have to have your foot on the brake to shift gears! What the ****! Again, this is a terrible design especially for a panic situation.

Trying to quickly shift gears with this shifter is a disaster. The actuation points are extremely narrow and require too much precision - this is a bad situation waiting to happen for someone not paying attention, someone in a hurry, someone who is fatigued, and the list goes on. People are human and make mistakes, often at that. I don't despise this shifter, but every day I drive my GC I wish it had the newer design that stays in place with gears like my 2015 SRT Charger had.
My degree out of college is Human Factors which addresses this kind of thing. I personally think the design is fine. You have 4 indicators already. 1. The tactile feel of moving the shifter, it still has the same detents as a regular shifter for each gear you move thru, 2. You have a indicator on the dash, 3. You have an indicator on the shifter, 4. If you open the door and it is in anything other then park it chimes and displays a warning notice. At no point do I ever wonder what gear I am in. How many more failsafes do you need? Also if you are going to get out of a running vehicle that was previously moving, it behooves you verify it won't continue moving. The human set up that dangerous scenario not the car so it is the humans job to make sure it is safe.

Lastly Nitemare...you CANNOT design a flawless system for someone not paying attention, in a hurry, or fatigued. That is the users responsibility to slow down and verify. By that logic, my car should not crash if i am not paying attention, in a hurry or fatigued. That is a dumb expectation to expect a manufacture to cover those scenarios. Sorry if I am coming off as an ass, but the human has the overall responsibility to ensure their own safety in the end.

Its a sad thing that happened, but personal accountability is key. Mistakes happen but that is our fault.

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  #62  
Old 06-22-2016, 12:04 AM
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Re: Actor Anton Yelchin killed by Grand Cherokee in Neutral

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Originally Posted by Nitemare3219 View Post
The actuation points are extremely narrow and require too much precision - this is a bad situation waiting to happen for someone not paying attention, someone in a hurry, someone who is fatigued, and the list goes on. People are human and make mistakes, often at that.
This is worth appearing in the thread twice.

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  #63  
Old 06-22-2016, 01:11 AM
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Re: Actor Anton Yelchin killed by Grand Cherokee in Neutral

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Originally Posted by Og Neon View Post
My degree out of college is Human Factors which addresses this kind of thing. I personally think the design is fine. You have 4 indicators already. 1. The tactile feel of moving the shifter, it still has the same detents as a regular shifter for each gear you move thru, 2. You have a indicator on the dash, 3. You have an indicator on the shifter, 4. If you open the door and it is in anything other then park it chimes and displays a warning notice. At no point do I ever wonder what gear I am in. How many more failsafes do you need? Also if you are going to get out of a running vehicle that was previously moving, it behooves you verify it won't continue moving. The human set up that dangerous scenario not the car so it is the humans job to make sure it is safe.

Lastly Nitemare...you CANNOT design a flawless system for someone not paying attention, in a hurry, or fatigued. That is the users responsibility to slow down and verify. By that logic, my car should not crash if i am not paying attention, in a hurry or fatigued. That is a dumb expectation to expect a manufacture to cover those scenarios. Sorry if I am coming off as an ass, but the human has the overall responsibility to ensure their own safety in the end.

Its a sad thing that happened, but personal accountability is key. Mistakes happen but that is our fault.

I agree with this argument wholeheartedly. I don't agree that the shifter design is flawed, it does what it's basically designed to do.The issue is that it's not intuitive and has a steep learning curve. FCA has acknowledged this and has placed a recall on our vehicles to increase fail-safes, not to change the overall design of the shifter (but that's another issue that has yet to be addressed in our current vehicles). You will also note that the letter sent to us by FCA considering the recall spells out BASIC vehicle operating procedures we should all be following when operating ANY vehicle until such time and after the upgrade/repair is performed. Honestly, we would be foolish to rely solely on technology to keep us safe from inattentiveness, fatigue or human error when operating a 2 ton rocket!!!


That said, I agree that we would all be better off with a DIFFERENT shifter design as we have in the latest WK2s and perhaps automatic parking breaks like in the new Cherokees but let's not think for a second that accidents from inattentiveness and human error will suddenly disappear as a result.
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Old 06-22-2016, 01:20 AM
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Re: Actor Anton Yelchin killed by Grand Cherokee in Neutral

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Originally Posted by etsakpoe View Post
I agree with this argument wholeheartedly. I don't agree that the shifter design is flawed, it does what it's basically designed to do.The issue is that it's not intuitive and has a steep learning curve. FCA has acknowledged this and has placed a recall on our vehicles to increase fail-safes, not to change the overall design of the shifter (but that's another issue that has yet to be addressed in our current vehicles). You will also note that the letter sent to us by FCA considering the recall spells out BASIC vehicle operating procedures we should all be following when operating ANY vehicle until such time and after the upgrade/repair is performed. Honestly, we would be foolish to rely solely on technology to keep us safe from inattentiveness, fatigue or human error when operating a 2 ton rocket!!!


That said, I agree that we would all be better off with a DIFFERENT shifter design as we have in the latest WK2s and perhaps automatic parking breaks like in the new Cherokees but let's not think for a second that accidents from inattentiveness and human error will suddenly disappear as a result.
All good points and I agree with you especially your last sentence!
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Old 06-22-2016, 01:28 AM
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Re: Actor Anton Yelchin killed by Grand Cherokee in Neutral

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Originally Posted by tony4311 View Post
I think anybody saying the shifter isn't a bad design is just blindly defending their vehicle as if saying something is wrong with it is someone making it less valuable. It's a crappy design, simple as that. I've never not put it into park when I tried. However I've put it into a gear before that wasn't what I thought it was. It's why they got rid of it so fast, it's bad.
I don't think it is blindly defending the vehicle, I've given my view, it is fine for me. The few times I've had problems have been due to my own error (slipped thumb), and I have noticed instantly. I guess for some of us who have no problems (or have problems that are very easy to live with) it is difficult to understand others who say it is flawed and unsafe, etc.

On the up side I like the throw action for sport mode, compared to my old auto in the landcruiser I prefer the 14/15 shifter. I am not being dishonest, and I don't care about resale.

I would like to try the new polystable shifter one day, but so far the 14/15 is ok by me.
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  #66  
Old 06-22-2016, 01:35 AM
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Re: Actor Anton Yelchin killed by Grand Cherokee in Neutral

Originally Posted by Nitemare3219 View Post
The actuation points are extremely narrow and require too much precision - this is a bad situation waiting to happen for someone not paying attention, someone in a hurry, someone who is fatigued, and the list goes on. People are human and make mistakes, often at that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barboots View Post
This is worth appearing in the thread twice.

Cheers,
Steve
True, the actuation points are narrow and require some amount of precision but these are my 3 issues with this argument:

1. The most frequently used shift positions are P and D. Each requires pushing the lever to the extreme end of the column; upper end for P and lower end for D and simply releasing the lever. You don't need to use fine precision for that.

2. When putting the car in reverse, there are very few instances when you don't have to look back to see what is behind you. That means you have to shift into reverse and take time to pay attention to your mirrors or rear view camera output and continue to pay attention when doing so. There are very few foreseeable emergencies that will require such fast action that you won't have time to shift properly or look behind you to make sure that you don't hit a pedestrian, an object or another car.

3. As much as I understand where you're coming from, truth be told, you're making an argument for people who should probably not be driving in the first place.
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  #67  
Old 06-22-2016, 02:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitemare3219 View Post

Seems unnecessary. Electric cars absolutely make noise - road noise from the tires. That is the majority of noise you hear from an oncoming vehicle, especially at a distance - think of a highway. You can hear it a LONG ways away at night - you aren't hearing car engines, you're hearing the road noise from tires. Maybe at VERY low speeds you might not notice an electric vehicle...
They weren't talking about highway speeds because blind people typically aren't crossing highways in front of vehicles doing 75 mph. The concern and where they injected the noise was low speeds to help around unequipped cross walks where blind have trouble hearing them approach because they are quieter than non electric
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Old 06-22-2016, 12:30 PM
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Re: Actor Anton Yelchin killed by Grand Cherokee in Neutral

Quote:
Originally Posted by etsakpoe View Post
I agree with this argument wholeheartedly. I don't agree that the shifter design is flawed, it does what it's basically designed to do.The issue is that it's not intuitive and has a steep learning curve. FCA has acknowledged this and has placed a recall on our vehicles to increase fail-safes, not to change the overall design of the shifter (but that's another issue that has yet to be addressed in our current vehicles). You will also note that the letter sent to us by FCA considering the recall spells out BASIC vehicle operating procedures we should all be following when operating ANY vehicle until such time and after the upgrade/repair is performed. Honestly, we would be foolish to rely solely on technology to keep us safe from inattentiveness, fatigue or human error when operating a 2 ton rocket!!!


That said, I agree that we would all be better off with a DIFFERENT shifter design as we have in the latest WK2s and perhaps automatic parking breaks like in the new Cherokees but let's not think for a second that accidents from inattentiveness and human error will suddenly disappear as a result.
The DESIGN is definitely poor. It's not particlulary intuitive, and the lack of feedback makes it easy for the user to select the wrong gear.

It's not DEFECTIVE.

That's the conclusion FCA and the NHTSA have come to, and I totally agree. Bad design, but not defective.
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  #69  
Old 06-22-2016, 12:39 PM
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Re: Actor Anton Yelchin killed by Grand Cherokee in Neutral

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Originally Posted by Og Neon View Post
My degree out of college is Human Factors which addresses this kind of thing. I personally think the design is fine. You have 4 indicators already. 1. The tactile feel of moving the shifter, it still has the same detents as a regular shifter for each gear you move thru, 2. You have a indicator on the dash, 3. You have an indicator on the shifter, 4. If you open the door and it is in anything other then park it chimes and displays a warning notice. At no point do I ever wonder what gear I am in. How many more failsafes do you need? Also if you are going to get out of a running vehicle that was previously moving, it behooves you verify it won't continue moving. The human set up that dangerous scenario not the car so it is the humans job to make sure it is safe.
The design is definitely bad. FCA and the NHTSA both came to this conclusion.

Your point #1 is what they determined to be the issue. The tactile feel is totally numb, and the detents are definitely NOT the same as a regular shifter. This is also the #1 feedback people need when using their shifter, because:

2) As nobody stares at their dash because they're looking out the windshield or getting out of their car
3) your hand is covering the shifter because you're using it to select the gear
4) our cars are filled with seatbelt chimes/engine/radio noise.

So there may be more than one way to determine what gear you're in, but #1 is definitely the most important. #1 is what is bad. So that's why NHTSA and FCA agreed to recall.
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Old 06-22-2016, 12:59 PM
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Re: Actor Anton Yelchin killed by Grand Cherokee in Neutral

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Originally Posted by Og Neon View Post
You have 4 indicators already. 1. The tactile feel of moving the shifter, it still has the same detents as a regular shifter for each gear you move thru, 2. You have a indicator on the dash, 3. You have an indicator on the shifter, 4. If you open the door and it is in anything other then park it chimes and displays a warning notice.
1. The tactile feel is NOT OBVIOUS ENOUGH, and the detents are VERY SMALL AREAS. As mentioned by the post above mine, that is the #1 problem because that is what people have become very comfortable and accustomed to relying on - and it is a very reliable way to tell what gear you're in with a design that facilitates it. This design does not facilitate good tactile feedback.

2. I hate looking at the dash to see what gear I am in, and in some vehicles, the display is slow to react to changes. I want my eyes on the road.

3. Again, eyes on the road/surroundings. And my hand is covering this indicator during shifts.

4. Nobody gives a rats ass about a standard warning chime. It is the same chime your seatbelt warning makes. The same chime a vehicle message indicator makes. People ignore the chimes, ESPECIALLY when they are focused on something else... like getting out of the car, when vehicles chime anyway to tell you a door is open. And again, not going to look at the dash when I get out of the car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by etsakpoe View Post
Originally Posted by Nitemare3219 View Post
The actuation points are extremely narrow and require too much precision - this is a bad situation waiting to happen for someone not paying attention, someone in a hurry, someone who is fatigued, and the list goes on. People are human and make mistakes, often at that.



True, the actuation points are narrow and require some amount of precision but these are my 3 issues with this argument:

1. The most frequently used shift positions are P and D. Each requires pushing the lever to the extreme end of the column; upper end for P and lower end for D and simply releasing the lever. You don't need to use fine precision for that.

2. When putting the car in reverse, there are very few instances when you don't have to look back to see what is behind you. That means you have to shift into reverse and take time to pay attention to your mirrors or rear view camera output and continue to pay attention when doing so. There are very few foreseeable emergencies that will require such fast action that you won't have time to shift properly or look behind you to make sure that you don't hit a pedestrian, an object or another car.

3. As much as I understand where you're coming from, truth be told, you're making an argument for people who should probably not be driving in the first place.
I agree going from P to D, D to P, or R to D typically isn't a problem. But there are many instances where it has obviously been a problem. The range of motion for the shifter is too short. It has what, an inch or 2 inches of travel through the entire gear range?! Most shifters have SEVERAL inches! The margin for error is too small. If you don't push the shifter hard enough, you don't end up in the gear you want. If you push it too hard, again, you can end up in the gear you don't want. Yes, that's true for any conventional design as well, but magically they don't have this problem - it's not magic, it's having a larger range of motion and more obvious gear detents where the shifter stays in that designated position.

The reverse bit is not the point I should have made. Going from reverse to drive is more of an issue, because again, people may not end up reaching drive and may instead only reach neutral instead. Someone on the forums here did this and got HIT because of it.

It's not defending people who shouldn't be driving. Plenty of people, myself included, have made mistakes with this shifter. I don't granny speed my shifts and take time to quadruple verify what ****ing gear I am in. It should be blatantly obvious with tactile feedback ALONE what gear I am in. This current shifter is not blatant. If it was, practically none of these ****ing incidents would have happened. I have NEVER been in the wrong gear accidentally in ANY OTHER VEHICLE I HAVE EVER DRIVEN. This GC is not a mysterious curse for me and many other drivers. It's a bad design.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Illegal Machine View Post
The design is definitely bad. FCA and the NHTSA both came to this conclusion.
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  #71  
Old 06-22-2016, 06:27 PM
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Re: Actor Anton Yelchin killed by Grand Cherokee in Neutral

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Originally Posted by Mozzie View Post
3 hours to make it beep louder and add a larger warning on the EVIC ?

Took my 15 SRT in for the recall fix and get this...the fix doesn't apply "Yet" for the SRT/Diesel models. Jeep hasn't sorted that out yet.


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Old 06-22-2016, 06:47 PM
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Took my 15 SRT in for the recall fix and get this...the fix doesn't apply "Yet" for the SRT/Diesel models. Jeep hasn't sorted that out yet.

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Yeah they announced that 6/13 that the 3.6/5.7 was ready now, earlier than the Jul/aug acceleration to the initial q4/16 availability, but the 3.0/6.4 was now Jul/aug...
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