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-   -   Experience with dealers and TSB's (http://www.jeepgarage.org/f107/experience-with-dealers-and-tsbs-70012.html)

rnabors 01-05-2014 12:42 PM

Experience with dealers and TSB's
 
I read this site a lot and like it. I seldom post but decided to share some of my experiences for your consideration.
Having problems with a new car can be really frustrating---I have been there many time over my long life. Many times that frustration causes us to behave in strange ways, often disrespectful, threating, and combative. I assure you that if we let our frustration get the best of us and start getting ugly, threating lawyers, lemon law, etc. right off the bat it will likely result in less cooperation not more. However, in my experience, a person that is calm, courteous, patient, and respectful with a dealer will often get service with equal respect and maybe even see the dealer go the extra mile. If satisfaction can not be achieved through respectful dialogue and enough time then there are certainly other remedies to pursue down the road--but even that can be done in a respectful way.

As far as TSB's are concerned--- they are bulletins containing technical information to assist a dealer in diagnosing a problem raised by a customer. TSB's are supposed to be proprietary information. A TSB is not an ENTITLEMENT of action-- it is a tool to assist a dealer in providing a good diagnosis and appropriate repair-- the decision to act on a TSB is the dealers to make.

In fact if I were in the auto business and a customer came in waiving a handful of TSB's demanding that I install them whether I needed them or not I think I would be less interested in going the extra mile with that customer. The way it should work is for a customer to experience a problem with their car and discuss it with the dealer, the dealer tries to diagnose the problem with the aid of their scan tools, other tools, their experience, conferring with the manufacture, TSB's, and whatever else they deem helpful.
If the problem is confirmed then they perform the appropriate action. If no problem is found they probably will probably not tie up technicians and do work at a reduced warranty rate for no reason. This is not a game--it is a very appropriate business process that any manufacture of durable goods would follow in any industry.

Plus if we try to get a dealer to make our vehicle do something it was never designed to do I don't think they will do it. We can request that the manufacture consider make the change we would like or there are dozens of small shops that specialize in doing unique software or hardware changes not engineered or approved by the manufacturer. We can certainly pay them to do it at our own risk.

A manufacturer recall, on the other hand, is something that all owners with vehicles described in the notice are fully ENTITLED to--no questions asked!!

Plus don't forget, those of us with a 2014 wkII,-- we are in the early years of a lot of newer technology and it may take a while for the manufacture to get it all worked out. So far I have found Jeep and my dealer to be very responsive and committed to work through all of the issues. I am pleased with the attention Jeep is giving to problems and personally feel that most of the issues are behind us. It seems that later build dates are doing quit well.

Currently I have a Ram 3500, Jeep Liberty diesel and fortunately my 2014 Summit (July build date) which I have had very few issues with.

I have too many years of experience (old) with many automobiles and dealers, I have experienced countless problems and frustrations with every manufacture I have owned--American, European, and Asian. I just wanted to share my views resulting from this experience and hope it helps someone.:)

AAAA 01-05-2014 01:17 PM

Re: Experience with dealers and TSB's
 
R, well said.

silvermax04 01-05-2014 02:57 PM

Re: Experience with dealers and TSB's
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rnabors (Post 955021)
I read this site a lot and like it. I seldom post but decided to share some of my experiences for your consideration.
Having problems with a new car can be really frustrating---I have been there many time over my long life. Many times that frustration causes us to behave in strange ways, often disrespectful, threating, and combative. I assure you that if we let our frustration get the best of us and start getting ugly, threating lawyers, lemon law, etc. right off the bat it will likely result in less cooperation not more. However, in my experience, a person that is calm, courteous, patient, and respectful with a dealer will often get service with equal respect and maybe even see the dealer go the extra mile. If satisfaction can not be achieved through respectful dialogue and enough time then there are certainly other remedies to pursue down the road--but even that can be done in a respectful way.

As far as TSB's are concerned--- they are bulletins containing technical information to assist a dealer in diagnosing a problem raised by a customer. TSB's are supposed to be proprietary information. A TSB is not an ENTITLEMENT of action-- it is a tool to assist a dealer in providing a good diagnosis and appropriate repair-- the decision to act on a TSB is the dealers to make.

In fact if I were in the auto business and a customer came in waiving a handful of TSB's demanding that I install them whether I needed them or not I think I would be less interested in going the extra mile with that customer. The way it should work is for a customer to experience a problem with their car and discuss it with the dealer, the dealer tries to diagnose the problem with the aid of their scan tools, other tools, their experience, conferring with the manufacture, TSB's, and whatever else they deem helpful.
If the problem is confirmed then they perform the appropriate action. If no problem is found they probably will probably not tie up technicians and do work at a reduced warranty rate for no reason. This is not a game--it is a very appropriate business process that any manufacture of durable goods would follow in any industry.

Plus if we try to get a dealer to make our vehicle do something it was never designed to do I don't think they will do it. We can request that the manufacture consider make the change we would like or there are dozens of small shops that specialize in doing unique software or hardware changes not engineered or approved by the manufacturer. We can certainly pay them to do it at our own risk.

A manufacturer recall, on the other hand, is something that all owners with vehicles described in the notice are fully ENTITLED to--no questions asked!!

Plus don't forget, those of us with a 2014 wkII,-- we are in the early years of a lot of newer technology and it may take a while for the manufacture to get it all worked out. So far I have found Jeep and my dealer to be very responsive and committed to work through all of the issues. I am pleased with the attention Jeep is giving to problems and personally feel that most of the issues are behind us. It seems that later build dates are doing quit well.

Currently I have a Ram 3500, Jeep Liberty diesel and fortunately my 2014 Summit (July build date) which I have had very few issues with.

I have too many years of experience (old) with many automobiles and dealers, I have experienced countless problems and frustrations with every manufacture I have owned--American, European, and Asian. I just wanted to share my views resulting from this experience and hope it helps someone.:)

Concerning TSBs I agree with you that people should not go to dealers with a stack of TSBs telling the dealer to do them, that is not how it is supposed to work and dealers do not like it. However the process of diagnoses you describe assumes a perfect world and most know that going to the dealer is far from a perfect world. Dealers often need to be helped in the right direction towards a TSB when you know for sure that a TSB is your problem.

I stated this experience on another thread but will restate here. My Jeep was in for the bad XM reception problem fix recently and this time I just told them about the problem without mentioning the TSB for it as I could tell I have agitated them with TSB talk in the past. So 2 days pass that they have the jeep and they call and say your radio has no errors in it and is functioning fine and we want to keep it another day so we can reload the radio software but we have no usb sick but will buy one tomorrow. I stated I don't think it is a radio problem and then emailed them the TSB and said this TSB describes the exact problem I am having with XM reception the problem sounds like an antenna problem. Light bulbs go off and they say they will order parts, wrong parts were ordered and are then reordered. 5 days (glad for the maxcare rental) later jeep is back XM reception fixed. If I had not stepped in I have no doubt my jeep would have come back with the same problem it went in with. Not the first time I have encountered this type scenario being a first time jeep owner.

I guess the point is dealers are not always stellar at trouble shooting nor do they have the time to examine specific issues as closely as an interested knowledgeable owner might. So I guess what I am saying is that we often need to find a balance between helping them in the right direction vs telling them what to do.

I do agree with the majority of your post though, well said.

GCLimited 01-06-2014 08:19 AM

Re: Experience with dealers and TSB's
 
What a bunch of crap...I bet you work for Chrysler. Either that or you're the biggest leg-humper fan boy on this site.

:rolleyes:

I have every right to demand that TSBs aimed at correcting the issues that affect my vehicle be fixed, period. Most the time the TSB explains the problem better than I can...if anything I feel I'm making the dealerships job easier by showing the TSB in order to identify the issue more accurately.

...like the TSB to fix my crappy shifting transmission from day one (4th revision now), or the TSB to fix the climet system from turning off everytime I remote start the vehicle. I also have the right to demand my radio is updated to the latest version so I may reap all the benefits from all the "enhancements".

Not my problem Chrysler doesn't reimburse the dealerships enough for warranty work, reading your post just made me even more pissed off than I am at my vehicle and the lousy service I get from my dealership.

"Edmunds article, "How Can a Technical Service Bulletin Help Me?" states that if there's a TSB for your particular problem, and it's verifiable by the dealer, then the repair is free to cars within the warranty period."

bill_de 01-06-2014 09:11 AM

Re: Experience with dealers and TSB's
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GCLimited (Post 955408)
What a bunch of crap...I bet you work for Chrysler. Either that or you're the biggest leg-humper fan boy on this site.

:rolleyes:

I have every right to demand that TSBs


Your own attitude has a lot to do with how you get treated. If you talk to the people at the dealership with the same tone you use here, it's no surprise they don't want to help. If you go back and read your posts you very often use words like fight, garbage, crap, demand, etc.

I have brought copies of TSBs to the dealer when I had appointments for other work. I ask them if they think I should get it done. They have always taken care of it on that visit.

I mentioned to the service writer on one visit that I would probably see her next month when the recall notice was issued for the Christmas tree dash. The service manager heard me and asked what I was talking about because they had not been notified yet. They were aware of the problem, just not the recall. We had a discussion about recalls, TSBs, and the problems with the '14s.

If I had said to the service writer, I'll be bringing this piece of crap back next month so that maybe you'll have somebody capable of fixing it, and if you don't you'll be hearing from my lawyer because I know about the lemon law, yada yada yada, I doubt the service manager would have approached me to have a discussion about anything. He might have held the door for me. ;)

Yadkin 01-06-2014 09:29 AM

Re: Experience with dealers and TSB's
 
Post 4 is hilarious. "You can catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar." :lol:

GCLimited 01-06-2014 11:37 AM

Re: Experience with dealers and TSB's
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bill_de (Post 955423)

Your own attitude has a lot to do with how you get treated. If you talk to the people at the dealership with the same tone you use here, it's no surprise they don't want to help. If you go back and read your posts you very often use words like fight, garbage, crap, demand, etc.

For the record Bill, I have NEVER used that tone when I've gone to the dealership for warranty work. All I've said is I've experienced issues explained in this TSB...then I show them the printed copy of the TSB that I have on hand. Usually the first question I'm asked is "Where did you get this?". This should NOT be the first question the dealership asks me, it should be something like "Well then, let take a look at your vehicle and see if we can reproduce the problem". Come on now, it's not like I'm there to waste my time or theirs, and if they would bother to check out the vehicle themselves, they'd see that I wasn't lying.

I also don't understand why some people insist on making an issue over my posts, it's not like I'm complaining about every little thing...just big issues like transmission or reprograming issues...I'm not ever at the dealership complaining about interior trim or defective paint.

Quote:

If I had said to the service writer, I'll be bringing this piece of crap back next month so that maybe you'll have somebody capable of fixing it, and if you don't you'll be hearing from my lawyer because I know about the lemon law, yada yada yada, I doubt the service manager would have approached me to have a discussion about anything. He might have held the door for me. ;)
Again Bill, I've never said anything remotely close to this at my many visits to the Jeep dealership...nor will I use this tone when I hopefully talk to the regional manager today (if he ever calls me).

I save my venting for this web site.;)

rnabors 01-06-2014 11:57 AM

Re: Experience with dealers and TSB's
 
GCLimited
I didn't mean to anger you-- and I don't work for Chrysler. If you don't use that tone when you talk to dealer I am curious why you would on a forum with a fellow GC owner that is just trying to give some helpful ideas????
I guess I should stop posting--good lesson for new members.

not_too_shabby 01-06-2014 12:13 PM

Re: Experience with dealers and TSB's
 
I think it's valuable to be educate oneself about your vehicle. For instance the quadralift suspension TSB for the issue where the raising and lowering light continue to flash even after the vehicle has reached the correct ride height. I cannot duplicate it at will, but describing the problem to the dealer will likely return the typical, "We haven't heard of that before" response. Describing the issue and telling them you are aware of a TSB on the issue and that a software update should resolve it, IMO will increase the likeliness of getting it corrected.

jacko15 01-06-2014 12:59 PM

Re: Experience with dealers and TSB's
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rnabors (Post 955495)
GCLimited
I didn't mean to anger you-- and I don't work for Chrysler. If you don't use that tone when you talk to dealer I am curious why you would on a forum with a fellow GC owner that is just trying to give some helpful ideas????
I guess I should stop posting--good lesson for new members.

That's the upside, and downside, of the anonymity offered on forums. Folks will say things here that they otherwise wouldn't say face to face. Don't let it scare you away. You just have to thicken up your skin a little. Don't forget, you can also blow off a little steam here too. Kinda like family, sometimes the frustration shows through, but don't take it personal. :D

bill_de 01-06-2014 01:03 PM

Re: Experience with dealers and TSB's
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GCLimited (Post 955484)

I save my venting for this web site.;)

Good, this is where it belongs. :thumbsup:


---

GCLimited 01-06-2014 02:30 PM

Re: Experience with dealers and TSB's
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rnabors (Post 955495)

GCLimited
I didn't mean to anger you-- and I don't work for Chrysler. If you don't use that tone when you talk to dealer I am curious why you would on a forum with a fellow GC owner that is just trying to give some helpful ideas????
I guess I should stop posting--good lesson for new members.

Sorry for taking my fustration out on you...nothing personal. This is a sore subject for me because I've been dealing with so many issues on my new 2014 GC from day one...issues that still have not been fully taken care of, either because the "fix" was insuffcient or because of lousy service from the dealership I bought the vehicle at. Not to rehash, but while driving my new Jeep off the lot I got my first CEL (ABS module)...something that should have been detected by the dealership first, and from day one my transmission has shifted like crap. Granted it is better now, but I want that newest reflash.

I feel I have the right to have a functioning vehicle for the $40,000 I paid for it, and if there's a TSB out there that addresses the issue I've been having, it damn well should be used towards fixing it. That's what "Warranty" is all about, agreed?

I'm not angry I bought a "Beta" vehicle, I'm angry because Chrysler doesn't seem to want to help me by making it hard to get TSBs implemented.


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