[Willx]

I just finished a thorough run in the JGC... The Hemi is better on fuel than I thought and it performed better than I thought. The Transmission with the Hemi is the EXACT same model tranny as the BMW if that helps your BMW fever

 

[Willx]

You guys in the USA really need to drive a V6 diesel. It is by far the best engine choice. I am from Australia, and I have tried all 3, and the diesel engine is really impressive. When doing the maths for the extra cost, dont forget to include the added resale value. Here in Oz, a 3 yr old GC diesel, sells for 7k more than a hemi.

Buddy, I would buy one if I could get it but our production doesn't even start for Diesel until September!

Preaching to the choir here, I had a Hemi Summit all this past week and all I could think about was 35% better mileage and easier trailer hauling :drool:!

I want to mention about reading about Baa baaa's and him getting nearly 600km (373 miles) to the first half of the tank BRAND NEW!

 

[Willx]

Putting aside the fact that the diesels STILL aren't around one has to factor in the extra cost. Here in the US the diesel add $4500 to the cost. Assuming Jeep's number are right, a diesel model gets about 15% better mileage than the V6. Not too bad to start, but here in the US diesel fuel runs a good 15% MORE than gasoline.

Assuming 12,000 miles per year at an average of, say, 20 mpg for the gas engine we get about 600 gallons per year. At an average of $3.75 that's $2250 per year in gasoline.

Turning now to diesel, if we again assume 12,000 miles and an average of 24 mpg, this time at $4.30 per gallon, we get 500 gallons of fuel at an annual cost of roughly $2150--only $100 per year difference!

True, these are inexact calculations and based on my area's pricing, but even on a rough basis it would take me a very, very long time to recoup the $4500 premium, even assuming a 100% return at trade/sale. Of course, this does not factor in the possibility that the diesel could depreciate less. It could also, as we've seen with other US diesels, depreciate MORE. I kept it even.

Bottom line: Much as I'd like the diesel I cannot make an economic case for it, especially since dealers would likely look at it as "new" and refuse to negotiate to the same extent. Instead of invoice less 5% I may be looking at close to sticker!

If I've missed anything let me know......

Yes, you totally missed the point... Everyone agreed a long time ago that no one is comparing the V6 to the Diesel as they are completely different Animals! You don't buy the V6 for the highest towing capacity or the power and speed.... You would buy the Diesel for these things.

Also who would buy a Diesel that does 12,000 Miles per year? You buy it because in it's weight class and capability as well as you drive a real amount and it saves 35% (conservatively) over comparible vehicles (there is no V6 Gas engine that comes close not even EcoBoost). Every Small Diesel I have driven has easily been better than EPA rating because you can actually drive at Interstate speeds in the south and still get amazing mileage.

Also keep in mind, the Aussies you are arguing with easily tow twice as much as anyone over here..... on that note ask people if they are getting 650 Miles to a tank on their V6 because the Aussies are getting 765 no problem on their diesels and that is the 15% difference. Small Diesels simply perform better so don't comment on them unit you have owned one, or driven one for an extended period of time, not to even get into the fact that most of the continent has less than a 15% difference in the price of gas to diesel fuel???

 

[Willx]

I do not follow.

Who is "everyone" and what have they "agreed" to? Also, what is wrong with 12K annual miles? What is a "real amount" of driving?

I value acceleration, passing ponder the economic case for a $4500 diesel option. From what I've read the 0-60 times and passing aren't hugely different from the V6. Given the $4500 premium and higher cost of diesel fuel I'm trying to make sense of the equation.

Totally agree that towing and very high mileage drivers may see a sooner benefit to the diesel.

Threads in this forum already discussing this very subject. Why would anyone compare the V6 to the Diesel in any way to be economical??? It is a $4500 upgrade you are totally correct so why would someone who is worried only about cost of operation at 12,000 miles per year even consider that?

My point is have you owned a 3.0 diesel and or have you put 700 miles on one to see? If you haven't then your math is only based on the epa and that doesn't mean anything because the general population doesn't reach epa fuel economy ratings. Real world experience is that the diesel pay their owners back when that are bought for the right purpose.

I am not disagreeing with your calculations, your math is valid. Frankly though coming from someone who did get over 600 miles to every tank I can tell you the real world is different from experience.

You made your statements in disagreement with aussies who have been running these things for years. Check out their threads and their mileage reports and you will get an idea of why they love their diesels. All I am saying is that you are making a comment without seeing the information that is already there. The guy who you quoted drives one so in order to rebuke his comment I expect that you have some experience driving one that is all.

I learned a long time ago, don't challenge someone on their comment unless you have comparable experiences to challenge it with not just sticker prices and government ratings.... shall we quote what the epa says the highway driving speed is?

 

[Willx]

A little tidbit for your calculator... EPA rates my old ML320 at 24 miles per gallon highway..... on a trip from Morgantown WV to Fort Myers beach traveling about 73 to 77 MPH on the highway and with a couple of stops I got over 30MPG. You won't see a gas engine exceed EPA like that at those speeds.

If you don't believe me feel free to check out the long haul trips the Aussies make. Even the older 3 liters from 2011 were able to get close to that with the 5 speed.

 

[Willx]

That's the problem w/ the internet. Tone does not come through! I wasn't disagreeing with or rebuking the Australian gentleman, but seeking clarification.

I am, however, curious as to EPA ratings & the diesel. Most gas vehicles don't get near the EPA ratings except if driven juuuust a certain way---and not like normal people do! Is it your experience that diesels are the opposite and owners routinely exceed EPA ratings by a considerable margin? That would indeed be interesting. Don't recall reading anything like that in the usual auto mags (C&D, R&T, etc), but then again articles on diesels are generally few and far between. For me, who doesn't tow and only drives around 12k/year I can't see getting it. Wouldn't mind actually driving one, but thus far they seem more rumor and speculation then anything else. Sure hope they don't end up like the last diesels Jeep tried. If I recall they didn't do too well, but these seem much better situated.

Too bad the diesel wasn't already out for awhile here in the US so we could hear from actual owners. It will likely be here about when I'd consider orrdering, but I doubt the dealers would give the same deals on them as they do the more plebeian V6s. I will pay more for certain kinds of performance. That's why I got a 335xi instead of a 328xi. I'd love a 550, but can't justify the premium. For now I am thinking about an Overland, which may go to the wife in a few years. Perhaps a 535 may then be in the cards.

In your situation likely the V6 makes sence and the which engine thing always gets heated because everybody with a Hemi says you should buy one and everyone with a V6 says you should buy that (painting in broad strokes here but you get the idea).

I know this is getting off the topic of the thread but I can explain the discrepancy on the EPA testing. I can't remember the exact speed the EPA calls highway speed in the tests but it is like 47 or 48 MPH and honestly who drives like that any real distance. Sure a Gas angine could be in top gear and idling at that speed so technically if you drove on the Freeway at 50MPH you would get great mileage. Now in my ML320, I don't even think it would have reached 7th at that low speed. The other thing is at 70 on the highway it happens to be humming along at about 2100 RPM which is right in the band where the engine produces the most torque (I realize that would be at full throttle but naturally it would be producing more torque with less fuel in the RPM sweet spot).

You do have to be mindfull when driving a diesel to get over EPA but it is certainly not hard because of the way a diesel produces power and it is tested the exact same way as a gas engine. If you look around there are a few places that believe the JGC will get over the 30MPG it is rated for pretty easily. There is a huge influx of Diesel already started, so I think that you will see more examples of this out there soon.

 

[Willx]

Meeting with VW tomorrow about buying this turd from us and my next stop will be for a new GC Overland in white with the Indigo interior and the 3.6. I want all the fuel mileage I can get and you can count on the fact that fuel prices aren't going down any time soon.

Welcome to JeepGarage!

Sorry to hear about the VW problems... Ironically I know a few people with the Touareg and it has been a good vehicle for them.

 

[Willx]

Excellent points. Unfortunately, there are no diesels to even test drive!
The lease on my BMW ends in October. If i am to order a new vehicle I must do so by mid to late August at the latest.

I am very interested in the diesel, but am hesitant due to Jeep's past failure with one in the US before, lack of availability, likelihood of a better 'deal" and uncertain reliability. If memory serves the last time Jeep tried a diesel in the US it more or less "bombed". Still.....I wouldn't mind actually driving one to see if its worth the extra $. I've acquired 335xis over 328s and 530s instead of 528s, so I don't solely look at numbers.

Based on your prior comments I would say the V6 is still a good fit for you. As all of your points were valid for lower miles etc. it may just be a better fit.

As I have said before, vehicles and options on vehicles are personal. Your personal choice on direction is never wrong.

On the other hand, if you want to experience one, go drive a 2013 Touareg and then drive the Hemi Jeep.... you will get how it applies at that point. Also, BTW, diesels have come a long way since the 07/08.... I wouldn't have bought one of those either. Even though it was a Mercedes engine, that series was never a shining star.

Diesel will never be for everyone (cost / payback) but for some of us the savings in operation will pay for part of our car payment (towing).