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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I just replaced my wiped Cam on my 5.7L.

Now the plastic oil pan with a brand new seal is leaking oil, and more than can be lived with. I've tried tightening the bolts at the spot where the pan is leaking, no change. It is the front of the seal, at the timing cover.

Any tips on this? I hate the idea of getting a new seal and unbolting the oil pan again, 21 bolts most in hard to reach spots and you have to pull the cradle between the trans and engine block. But I see no way around it.
 

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I would of thought the hemi's have metal pans.

Is the leak coming from the seal or the pan?
Could be the wrong seal or incorrectly installed whereas the oil pan has a hard time sealing the area.
Again never worked on a hemi, its unclear if this a semi circle crank seal or the timing cover seal you're dealing with?

A little history on Ford's plastic oil pans.
Ford had BIG problems with leaking plastic oil pans based on the forums.
Some leaking pans had to be re-installed multiple times to finally stop leaking along with replacing the original pan in some cases.
I might be wrong but i think Ford came to their senses and started to install metal pans on later year vehicles.
Either:
-The plastic pans warped
-The sealant or incorrect sealant didn't cure long enough before adding oil
-The bolt torque sequence needs to be applied correctly to a T..... metal pans are more forgiving..

Like it or not you're probably going to have to pull the pan and inspect both the seal, pan gasket and the pan itself.
Could the seal be the wrong part, incorrectly installed or bad?
Could the pan gasket or the pan itself have split in that area?

Shotgun fixes:
Pull the pan or if applicable lower it just enough, carefully install a new seal and new pan gasket might work if the pan isn't warped or otherwise damaged.

But if this were my deal i'd search for an aftermarket metal pan, a quality gasket, correct oil compatible sealant, new seal and go for it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Jeep Hemi's have a plastic Pan, the Ram Trucks a stamped steel pan and the cars have die-cast aluminum. For the most part, I'm sure there are exceptions. I don't remember seeing on this forum anything about problems sealing the oil pans. Broken oil pans, yes, but not a sealing problem.
Motor vehicle Automotive tire Automotive exterior Rim Gas


Its the new kind of soft rubber/silicone that fits in a channel seal/gasket, like the valve cover, intake manifold, timing cover.
Train Rolling stock Rectangle Rolling Auto part


What looks different from the Ford Pans, the FCA pan has the bolts go up through holes in the gasket, the ford pans has the gaskets inside of the bolts.
And there is the special bolt with anti-crush collar to prevent damaging the pan.

What I may have done wrong, the collar on the bolt fits into the gasket hole and holds it in. I probably should have installed all the bolts into the gasket/pan before bolting it up.

But I was concerned with the RTV beads you need to run on the 4 T joints for gaskets.
Font Cylinder Gas Engineering Auto part


So I only installed 4 bolts closest to each bead of RTV, so I could bolt it up to the RTV as soon as possible after running the bead.

Then I inserted the bolts one at a time afterwards.

So now I'm thinking, the leak may be the bolt anti-crush collar didn't insert into the hole in the gasket properly and distorted it someway not to seal. I probably should have assembled all the bolts and seal in the pan before installing it, instead of installing the pan and seal with just four bolts to set the RTV quickly, then started inserting the special bolts into the seals while its under pressure....
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
So I dropped the oil pan tonight, the two inch drop. I didn't remove the front axle, and driveshafts to get it out completely, just unbolted the trans/engine saddle and the oil pan, there is enough room to drop the pan down 2 inches and get the gasket out.

Nothing wrong with the gasket, all the bolts look like the went in correctly and didn't cause any problems. The RTV looks all screwed up, not where its suppose to be, it looks like I messed up the beads. RTV and then they smeared away from the area they needed to seal instead of smeared into.

Tomorrow clean up the RTV and clean off the oil and put it all back together. I'll be a little more careful running the beads of RTV this time.
 

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If this were my deal i'd use a dedicated high temperature oil resistant gasket sealant instead of RTV but thats me.
Then i'd give it a long time to cure even overnight before adding oil and starting the engine.
Its never a lot of fun dropping oil pans.

Anyhow good you tracked down the leak and hopefully get to use the Jeep.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
If this were my deal i'd use a dedicated high temperature oil resistant gasket sealant instead of RTV but thats me.
Can you give me an example of "a dedicated high temperature oil resistant gasket sealant"? I used Permatex Ultra Black, maximum oil resistance RTV. What no RTV sealant are you suggesting?

Keep in mind, the RTV bead go in a spot that needs gap filled, like the sharp corners, etc. So I'm not sure a different material would work better.

Cleaning the old RTV off it looks like one of the 4 beads was contaminated with oil before or while it cured. And that is going to be a challenge tomorrow, lots of oil continues to drip down and cover the sealing surface. I think I'm going to try to wipe down the inside of the crankcase walls as much as possible to get out as much oil as possible, cause bolting up this oil pan is going to take more than a few minutes and that is more than enough time for oil to drain down and contaminate the beads of RTV.
 

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Can you give me an example of "a dedicated high temperature oil resistant gasket sealant"? I used Permatex Ultra Black, maximum oil resistance RTV. What no RTV sealant are you suggesting?

Keep in mind, the RTV bead go in a spot that needs gap filled, like the sharp corners, etc. So I'm not sure a different material would work better.

Cleaning the old RTV off it looks like one of the 4 beads was contaminated with oil before or while it cured. And that is going to be a challenge tomorrow, lots of oil continues to drip down and cover the sealing surface. I think I'm going to try to wipe down the inside of the crankcase walls as much as possible to get out as much oil as possible, cause bolting up this oil pan is going to take more than a few minutes and that is more than enough time for oil to drain down and contaminate the beads of RTV.
AH ok, RTV normally refers to the silicone usually clear vinegar smelling stuff.

When i recently had to pull the side case off my ATV to replace the stator and ingnition pick up coil i used the same Permatex Ultra Black which has maximum oil resistance.
I also replaced the timing chain tensioner and used it on that gasket.
Absolutely no oil leaks from either of the gaskets.
So you're good to go with the Permatex Ultra Black.
I started a thread on that project in the 'Other Rides' forum here.

As i mentioned earlier, give the Permatex Ultra Black enough time to cure before it gets exposed to heat and oil.
I'd give it an over nighter especially if you live in a snow belt state with the now colder weather.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
AH ok, RTV normally refers to the silicone usually clear vinegar smelling stuff.

As i mentioned earlier, give the Permatex Ultra Black enough time to cure before it gets exposed to heat and oil.
I'd give it an over nighter especially if you live in a snow belt state with the now colder weather.
I had a feeling you meant, not just any old RTV, but an RTV specifically for this purpose. That is what I did, Permatex Ultra Black Maximum Oil Resistance.

Yes, I think that might be at least part of the original failure, if not the whole cause, I did not give it a full 24 hours to cure before pouring oil into the pan. I'm doing that this time. First time I think I didn't get all the oil out of the area and leaked into one of the RTV beads before it cured. I suspect/hope I did a better job this time.
 

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I had a feeling you meant, not just any old RTV, but an RTV specifically for this purpose. That is what I did, Permatex Ultra Black Maximum Oil Resistance.

Yes, I think that might be at least part of the original failure, if not the whole cause, I did not give it a full 24 hours to cure before pouring oil into the pan. I'm doing that this time. First time I think I didn't get all the oil out of the area and leaked into one of the RTV beads before it cured. I suspect/hope I did a better job this time.
This link shows where i used the Permatex Ultra Black on my ATV's side case.

One thing i forgot to mention is i carefully scrape off the old gasket and sealer.
I'll try a plastic putty scraper first and if that don't work then a metal scraper being careful not to scratch or gouge the metal.
Some use a hand drill with a gasket/sealer removal wheel but never tried that myself.

Then i squeaky clean the oil and any residual sealer off the metal surface with acetone before applying the Permatex and gasket.
Never had a gasket leak using that process.
But plastic is a different animal than metal so i wouldn't recommend using a metal scraper or acetone maybe rubbing alcohol instead?

I'll admit i never had to deal with a plastic oil pan, gaskets and gasket sealer.
However i had to rebuild the 2x4/4x4 servo on my ATV that was in a plastic housing but it used a damaged Oring to seal both sides of the plastic case which i couldn't find at the time..
I custom cut a cork gasket then used the Ulta Black as a sealer and 8 years later, still no leaks.

IMO gasket sealer applied to an oily surface is probably not going to hold at least in the long run.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Put a space heater on the pan to help cure the RTV even more, since the temps are lower than 70°F. With 26 hrs, I filled it with oil and fired it up. Ran it about 20 minutes, get it to full operating temp.

:mad: Its leaking even worse than before from the same spots. I don't think its the RTV, the excess squeezed outside the pan is bone dry, and oil is not even collecting in that area. It's leaking from the very front bolt and one of the rear corner bolts. 20 minutes of running the engine and its dripping oil on the ground off the front of the pan and little less at the rear of the pan. Like before the front bolt seems to be the most oil, soaking wet and dripping and the oil running down and spreading out from there.

The rear corner bolt, may be the same as before, I can't really tell, the saddle between the engine and trans covers this bolt, when I pulled it to change the gasket it was wet with oil as well as the bellhousing the same as it is again. I assumed it was just oil spreading from the front.

The underside of the trans bellhousing is covered in oil, but I can't figure out from where. The end of the crank, flex plate and Torque Converter are bone dry, this is not the rear main seal. The inside of the bottom of the bellhousing is a little wet and oily, but not as much as the outside bottom of the bellhousing. There is no trail or source for the oil. There is a puddle on the ground. I suspect the oil is dripping from that one corner bolt and dripping on the bottom of the bellhousing and on the ground.

Both bolts have far more oil than anywhere else it really looks like the oil is leaking through the bolt, but none of the bolt holes extend all the way through for oil to leak past the threads, so it must be leaking through the seals on to the bolt and then down through the collar on the bolt.

When I pulled all the bolts, I had them in a pile and cleaned them, never marked them or kept them in order, so re-installing them they went into different spots. So this can't be the bolts, a new gasket is leaking from the same spots as the previous new gasket.

I can only conclude this is the pan, its the only thing that is the same from before and its leaking again in the same spots.

Oh BTW, my pan was leaking before I pulled it while changing the cam and lifters. BUT, it was only leaking enough to make the pan grimey, sometimes a little wet, it never dripped oil, it now drips oil and more than a few drops when running the engine 20 minutes or more.
 

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I'll bet you're more than frustrated with this project which was almost done.

Have you considered that the plastic pan might have hair line cracks in it thats not visible to the eye ball?
Might want to carefully examine the pan in the area of the leak by flexing it under a magnifying glass but that would probably require removing the pan.

As i mentioned earlier, might want to search for an aftermarket metal pan and be done with it.
At least that would eliminate one variable and as a plus its metal not cheezy plastic.

Where are you applying the gasket? The pan or the engine block?
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
I'll bet you're more than frustrated with this project which was almost done.

Have you considered that the plastic pan might have hair line cracks in it thats not visible to the eye ball?
Might want to carefully examine the pan in the area of the leak by flexing it under a magnifying glass but that would probably require removing the pan.
Yea, hugely frustrated.

Yes, I've pretty much concluded it must be the pan.

It leaked before, but the leak was easy to live with, the pan was grimey and wet but did not drip on the ground. I assumed a fresh gasket would fix that, and did it with the cam job.
When I removed it, with everything off the front of the engine and radiator sandwich out (for my cam change) it easily slipped out from under the engine.
When I went to re-install it, I made the mistake of putting the timing cover and damper on first, it could not slip under the engine, and I did try to force it bit. I pulled the crank damper and was able to get it under the engine forcing it bit. So that forcing likely compromised the pan even further to leak more. Although while it was out, you could not see anything wrong with the naked eye.

Pulling the oil pan is a huge undertaking, removing the radiator sandwich is huge, then the crank damper than the timing cover and the saddle between trans/engine block. I'd just order a new one before pulling and inspecting the pan for how much time and labor it will take. And this is a huge short cut from what the FSM recommends, dropping everything below the engine to drop the pan out, I posted about it on the tip board.

As i mentioned earlier, might want to search for an aftermarket metal pan and be done with it.
At least that would eliminate one variable and as a plus its metal not cheezy plastic.
I've looked, granted only quickly, but I can't find an aftermarket metal pan. If anyone knows of one, please let me know! An aftermarket pan for a WK2, there are several aftermarket generic metal pans for the HEMI, but none specifically for the WK2 and its a tight fit, any generic pan is not going to fit.

Where are you applying the gasket? The pan or the engine block?
Its not that type of gasket. This is one of the new type, like the valve covers, intake manifold, water pump and timing cover. The pan has a deep channel in the flange, the gasket is one long continuous blade that is pressed into the deep channel, then you bolt it bolt it up crushing the tall blade gasket against the engine flange surface, crushing the blade and forcing it to fill and seal the channel as it seals against the flat flange of the engine.


I'm traveling to visit family this week for Thanksgiving. Not sure what to do. Rental cars have gone up 5 times in price, I could buy a used car for what 2 weeks of a rental car will cost me at the moment.

The plan I'm formulating, other than canceling my trip;
Order a new plastic oil pan, and the gaskets and materials to replace it properly. But do a temporary fix for my trip and then redo the job properly with a new pan.

For a temporary fix, I'm going to pull the two bolts that seem to have all the oil leaking out of them, clean the holes as best as possible with brake cleaner, then fill them with Ultra Black RTV, cover the bolts and collars in Ultra Black RTV, and bolt them back up, give them 24 hours to cure and try again. Hoping I plugged the leak up enough, I can drive temporarily for a couple weeks before replacing the whole pan properly that will be more than a short simple job.
 

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There is a service bulletin for the hemi.. Plastic oil pan is one time use. Got a new engine on mine under warranty they used original pan. leaked like crazy first week. Finally getting a new one installed by dealer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
There is a service bulletin for the hemi.. Plastic oil pan is one time use. Got a new engine on mine under warranty they used original pan. leaked like crazy first week. Finally getting a new one installed by dealer.
What? Do you have the TSB Number?

Nothing in the FSM about this. But that is the point of TSB's, to add information that is found out later. Still, I'd like to read it for myself.
 

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There is a service bulletin for the hemi.. Plastic oil pan is one time use. Got a new engine on mine under warranty they used original pan. leaked like crazy first week. Finally getting a new one installed by dealer.
Holy crap, if that turns out to be true that plastic pan is junk.

Mongo,
have you tried summitracing.com?
Looked there quickly but don't know your year Jeep, they had a bunch of pans and also OEM Mopars.
Bought a lot of parts from them and they always came through with no issues.
Might want to give their cust. service a telephone call.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
skittb,
Thanks, we both have the same experience, no leaks but once the pan was removed and re-installed it leaked horribly. If you can find it, it would be nice to read, but I was already going the way of a new oil pan, so don't take it as me not trusting you, more an academic exercise for edification.

Moparado,
Last night, I pulled the two bolts that seemed to have all the oil leaking from them, filled the holes with ultra black RTV and coated the bolts with the RTV as well, put them in finger tight and gave an hour for an initial set then torqued them down and waiting 24 hours with a space heater to keep the temp up around 70°F for it to cure. I'm hoping that will reduce the leak to the point I can make my thanksgiving trip and replace the pan when I get home.

I have looked at SummitRacing and Jegs..... .....I'm not seeing any metal pan lists the WK2 nor does even look close to working....

The 5.7L has steel pans for the trucks, total different shape than the WK2. The Cars have diecast aluminum pans that look closer to the WK2 plastic oil pan, perhaps with the saddle molded into the oil pan, but that part molded into the car oil pan will make it impossible to slide out from under the engine, and force the only way to replace is too remove everything under the engine, steering, front drivetrain perhaps even the subframe (although from the looks of it, that isn't necessary)...... The room for the oil pan on the WK2 is so tight, I'm not risking money and time on just a guess of, "well it looks like it might fit".....
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
This is the bolt for the plastic oil pan
Household hardware Auto part Engineering Nickel Metal

Notice the collar on the bolt, I've been calling it an "Anti-Crush" collar. I'm sure the idea is to prevent torqueing the bolt down to hard on the plastic pan and breaking the pan.
Now I'm wondering, the collar may be preventing enough crush on the gasket to get it to seal properly. The plastic pan warps slightly, or the flange wears a bit with rubbing from the bolt, either vibration or just installing/removing it, now the anti-crush collar is preventing enough crush on the gasket?

:unsure: If I got some washers the right size, to fit over the crush collar, that would give me a little more room to torque the bolt down before the crush washer stopped it. i.e crush the gasket a little more to seal a little better. (Apperances can be decieving, but it does appear the two flanges of the engine and the pan do not meet, being held apart by the gasket pushing back against the crush of the bolts) So there may be a tiny bit of space to crush the gasket further.

Wish I thought of this before stuffing my two problem bolt holes with RTV, I'm running out of time to make to redo the bolts with washer and give RTV another 24 hours to cure.

Waste containment Wood Bumper Gas Automotive exterior

Look at the pan closely, the gasket is removed, notice the deep groove through the entire flange of the plastic oil pan. The gasket is pressed down inside that groove.
So, if the oil moves past the gasket, its going to collect in the groove, and then the lowest point that is a way out of the groove is past the bolts that are pushed up through the groove. Likely that is why I see most of the leaking oil seems to come from one or two bolts. I did a search of the forum and half the posts about leaking oil pans state the oil seems to be coming from the bolts. As well, there were more posts than I expected, so it is looking like one more common problem among many for the WK2......
 

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A hail mary trying to place a washer or two under those leaking bolt heads.
At this point what do you have to lose and if that results to a few leaking oil drops maybe it can get you to that gathering.
But i'd drive it a good many miles first to gain some confidence.
Having said that those bolts were designed to secure a new pan so i'm thinking a cracked or warped pan.

Now that i see the rubber gasket arrangement for the pan i'm thinking it probably needs no gasket sealant which somehow 'might' interfere with sealing?
Don't offhand see how just a thought.
Might want to research some hemi rebuilder sites.

Not the same but an oil leaking story with one of my old Harleys.
Me and a couple buddies took our Harley's to Yellowstone park a 1000 some miles one way for some backpacking and mountain creek fishing.
On the way home my Harley blew the primary chain sprocket seal leaking oil like crazy.
No Harley dealers for miles let alone ordering a new seal.
What did i do?
I stopped at every gas station and added oil as needed.
Got me home with a well oiled engine and to ride another day.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
A hail mary trying to place a washer or two under those leaking bolt heads.
At this point what do you have to lose and if that results to a few leaking oil drops maybe it can get you to that gathering.
But i'd drive it a good many miles first to gain some confidence.
Having said that those bolts were designed to secure a new pan so i'm thinking a cracked or warped pan.
Well, since the washer idea didn't occur to me until I had stuffed RTV in the two leaking bolt holes, so what I have to lose is another 24 hours to cure the RTV if I pull them out to put a washer on them. So, I'll see if the plugging up of the bolt hole is will work well enough to last me a couple weeks before I can replace the oil pan completely.

Now that i see the rubber gasket arrangement for the pan i'm thinking it probably needs no gasket sealant which somehow 'might' interfere with sealing?
Don't offhand see how just a thought.
Might want to research some hemi rebuilder sites.
On another vehicle, for the valve cover that used a silicone gasket, the instruction stated do not use RTV accept for a tiny bead at the 4 sharp corners (where you would use RTV in every situation). I thought I was smarter than the manufacturer and applied RTV to both sides of the entire gasket, it leaked horribly. Redid the job with a new gasket, followed the instructions exactly, used the tiny bead at the 4 sharp corners, and it sealed perfectly.

The FSM says to use RTV on the 4 "T" joints.
Font Cylinder Gas Engineering Auto part

Note, the flange for the oil pan on the engine side is not one contiguous steel flange. The front and rear there is an aluminum timing cover and aluminum plate that holds the rear main seal, there is a seal on each of these items and thus you have 4 seams on this flange with a gasket in it, that has to seal against the oil pan seal. Thus the "T" joint, two separate seals crossing to form a "T". This is where you put a bead of RTV. The oil pan seal has a large pad with recesses in it at these 4 "T" joints, the idea is it interlocks with the RTV in this problem area.

So it doesn't look like its leaking from these "T" joints, its simply leaking from the seal in areas without RTV.

Now, my temporary fix, it might not work and RTV might not help at all, my idea is just reduce the amount of leaking to a livable level. I'm just hoping to stop up the leak points with RTV, like a plug at the bolt hole, to slow down the leak. We'll see, its just as likely the oil will run over to the next bolt hole and leak out all over there.
 
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