[amc2002]

Many of us who have had issues with their Grand Cherokees have noted that these "troubleshooting/problems" forums seem a little more active than a lot of other car forums. We're told by the Jeep fanatics that "it's only because people who are having great experiences with their Jeeps don't come here to complain."

So the initial TrueDelta reports came out a short time ago.

The results are not pretty. As a member, we're not allowed to share the preliminary results, so I'll leave it to y'all to join up if you're interested and check it out.

If you're having zero issues, by all means get on board and help even out the statistics, right?

I fully hope CJF gets its house in order. I am a big fan of their products and if they can sort out the quality control and customer service issues within their company, there will be no stopping them.

 

[Setoutguy]

Chrysler's and Jeep's biggest problem is Sergio and Fiat and having all their cash ie profits heading overseas never to be seen again or used for R&D and new products.

 

[GCLimited]

I'd be happy if Chrysler/Jeep just brought their dealership chain, auto technicians, quality control, and customer service into the 21st century. Take a walk through a Toyota or Honda dealership to see how it's done right.

Don't get me wrong, I love my 2014 GC, but I had A LOT of initial issues...and it looks I'll have more to come with this latest recall.



This is my first Jeep product, and to tell you the truth, I'm not all that impressed.

 

[macfan]

Many of us who have had issues with their Grand Cherokees have noted that these "troubleshooting/problems" forums seem a little more active than a lot of other car forums. We're told by the Jeep fanatics that "it's only because people who are having great experiences with their Jeeps don't come here to complain."

So the initial TrueDelta reports came out a short time ago.

The results are not pretty. As a member, we're not allowed to share the preliminary results, so I'll leave it to y'all to join up if you're interested and check it out.

If you're having zero issues, by all means get on board and help even out the statistics, right?

I fully hope CJF gets its house in order. I am a big fan of their products and if they can sort out the quality control and customer service issues within their company, there will be no stopping them.

I am not saying that Chrysler/Jeep do not have their problems but I think two things are happening. One, is that complaining and hearing complaints becomes self perpetuating and people begin to look for and imagine problems. Two, I think some people are forgetting that the Grand Cherokee as well as the new Cherokee are still Jeeps. Jeeps are a rough and tumble utility vehicle. They are not supposed to be totally quiet or totally smooth. Stop comparing these vehicles to your grandmother's Lexus or BMW and start comparing them to your work pick up truck.

 

[SnoFire]

Chrysler's and Jeep's biggest problem is Sergio and Fiat and having all their cash ie profits heading overseas never to be seen again or used for R&D and new products.

Do you have any data to back this up (ie the profits going overseas)?

Dealers/Techs and Corporate need to start talking more. Making people run around to get answers is just crazy and not a good way to keep customers. I've had the transmission fixes, only time it is an issue is when the tranny is cold. The radio did have it's issue when I was on 13.19 but since upgraded it has been good. I do work hard for my money and the vehicles I have but I'm not going to go crazy or bitch about every little thing on this vehicle. I knew when I signed the dotted line that I was being a test person for the people down the road (other should know that as well) and I don't get worked up about it. Car companies aren't any different than any other software/hardware company out there, things happen as not foreseen before it goes like.

 

[chucksc]

Profits going overseas was Mercedes IIRC. I don't think that is happening here - at most they are covering Fiat's losses....

 

[bill_de]

Chrysler's and Jeep's biggest problem is Sergio and Fiat and having all their cash ie profits heading overseas never to be seen again or used for R&D and new products.

That's funny. I guess it was Lee Iacocca who did all the research on the new Cherokee.

But now that I read it on the internet it must be true.



---

 

[amc2002]

I am not saying that Chrysler/Jeep do not have their problems but I think two things are happening. One, is that complaining and hearing complaints becomes self perpetuating and people begin to look for and imagine problems. Two, I think some people are forgetting that the Grand Cherokee as well as the new Cherokee are still Jeeps. Jeeps are a rough and tumble utility vehicle. They are not supposed to be totally quiet or totally smooth. Stop comparing these vehicles to your grandmother's Lexus or BMW and start comparing them to your work pick up truck.

TrueDelta logs statistics from real owners. They are not "opinion" surveys, they are nuts-and-bolts reports of what went wrong, how many times you brought it to the shop, and whether or not the issue was fixed the first time. If you don't have an issue, you don't "log in." If you had a repair visit, you log it -- how many miles, what went wrong, what was fixed and how many attempts did it take to fix it. Therefore, it would seem that statistics would favor those who had no issues, since they are still part of the reporting (on the "good" side) even if they do nothing.

As for a "rough and tumble utility vehicle," this isn't a Wrangler, it's a GC. The VERY FIRST paragraph when you go to the Jeep GC Overland site is titled "World-Class Luxury," and the VERY FIRST sentence is this: "From your first moment inside, you'll experience the exquisite comfort and exceptional quality that only comes from a luxury vehicle of the highest caliber - the most luxurious SUV in its class."

 

[macfan]

TrueDelta logs statistics from real owners. They are not "opinion" surveys, they are nuts-and-bolts reports of what went wrong, how many times you brought it to the shop, and whether or not the issue was fixed the first time. If you don't have an issue, you don't "log in." If you had a repair visit, you log it -- how many miles, what went wrong, what was fixed and how many attempts did it take to fix it. Therefore, it would seem that statistics would favor those who had no issues, since they are still part of the reporting (on the "good" side) even if they do nothing.

As for a "rough and tumble utility vehicle," this isn't a Wrangler, it's a GC. The VERY FIRST paragraph when you go to the Jeep GC Overland site is titled "World-Class Luxury," and the VERY FIRST sentence is this: "From your first moment inside, you'll experience the exquisite comfort and exceptional quality that only comes from a luxury vehicle of the highest caliber - the most luxurious SUV in its class."

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. I have a feeling your post was thrown out as bait anyway. Funny thing is I bought my new Cherokee Limited with Active Drive II, all the bells and whistles, including the luxury package and still compare it to a pick up truck, not a "glorified" luxury car. I doubt very highly you can find a true luxury vehicle that has all the features and capabilities of the Grand Cherokee or Cherokee. My new Cherokee's transmission is a bit rough while the software is in adaptive mode. I kind of expected that and am not running off to my dealer and throwing a tantrum. I think your expectations depend on if you have done your research and know what to expect ahead of time, if your expectations were realistic to begin with, and the purpose you bought the vehicle for. Honestly, having grown up in the Michigan auto industry, I am amazed that vehicles are built and run as well as they do. That is not a knock at the American auto workers but just pointing out with the thousands of parts and all of the high tech in today's vehicles I am pleasantly surprised that they operate as well as they do. A lot of people have a problem with union auto workers. They are not the uneducated wrench turners they used to be. My dad was a skilled trades electrician for Chrysler Trenton Engine and Chrysler Trenton Chemical before he passed away. He was always going to school and getting more training. It is amazing the amount of experience and education you need to be an auto worker today. Strange thing is when Chrysler closed CycleWeld, the Japanese, bought, stripped, and flew back to Japan all of the high tech equipment in that plant (a lot of which my dad had installed and maintained). They especially wanted the paint mixers. Yet people hold up the foreign vehicles as quality as compared to ours. No thank you. I will take a Grand Cherokee or Cherokee even with problems over any foreign vehicle any day.

 

[robpp]

IMO lots of the grief is caused by the dealers themselves.

I know they dont do the build but the 'cant replicate' and the BS ripoff prices and just the standard dealer mess.....is the biggest cause for displeasure.

if they werent F'ing everyone you might not be as unhappy with a defect if they JUST fixed it/



i can easily say the DEALERS are the main reason I do not own a Chrysler vehicle anymore/
I think the new GC is a great looking vehicle. But it ends there.
I wont buy one because of the lack of a decent dealer anywhere close to me.

like most say ......a few issues can be expected. but the lack of trust and support at the dealer level ruins it/

 

[amc2002]

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. I have a feeling your post was thrown out as bait anyway.

Of course you do. Please don't take anything in this post personally, I'm going to try to be fair in my replies.

I can assure you it was not thrown out as bait. I took a lot of crap from a lot of people when my GC had all its problems, and didn't find it helpful when people would tell me, "Nothing wrong here! Jeeps don't have any more issues than any other brand, people just complain when they have problems." This, at the same time I continued to proclaim just how much I loved my GC and how there was really nothing else on the road that I wanted to drive -- I just wanted mine to be reliable and for the dealers to be solid. Neither ended up being true.

I doubt very highly you can find a true luxury vehicle that has all the features and capabilities of the Grand Cherokee or Cherokee.

Dunno. I think Range Rover has pretty much built that reputation all over the world as well, don't you think? I mean, you see them in the deserts and the rainforests. Top Gear ran one up the side of a mountain.

My new Cherokee's transmission is a bit rough while the software is in adaptive mode. I kind of expected that and am not running off to my dealer and throwing a tantrum. I think your expectations depend on if you have done your research and know what to expect ahead of time, if your expectations were realistic to begin with, and the purpose you bought the vehicle for.

Respectfully, a lot of us were told by dealers that our brand new GC's that were shifting harshly were just "adapting" to our driving. Then bingo, three months later suddenly there's a "software fix." Complaining about nothing? Or did Jeep know it had a problem? I wonder.

Honestly, having grown up in the Michigan auto industry, I am amazed that vehicles are built and run as well as they do. That is not a knock at the American auto workers but just pointing out with the thousands of parts and all of the high tech in today's vehicles I am pleasantly surprised that they operate as well as they do.

My wife heard almost the exact same comment from our dealer -- "you know, these are complex rolling machines." I wanted to hurt someone when she said the dealer told her that. Every car out there today is a rolling machine. That's not an excuse for shoddy quality control.

A lot of people have a problem with union auto workers. They are not the uneducated wrench turners they used to be. My dad was a skilled trades electrician for Chrysler Trenton Engine and Chrysler Trenton Chemical before he passed away. He was always going to school and getting more training. It is amazing the amount of experience and education you need to be an auto worker today.

I don't blame the workers one bit. In fact, I knew going in (despite what some Jeep advocates might say) that the odds were I was going to have trouble with any new Jeep. That's why I leased. I wanted to be able to walk away if necessary and not get stuck selling a problem vehicle. I was willing to take the chance, and even willing to deal with a few issues because it was such a marvelous vehicle. But my dealer ended up being just terrible, and I have heard similar horror stories about every dealer within 50 miles of me (we have six or seven in the area). The bottom line is the COMPANY and the DEALERS have to make customer service #1. The problem is that the products are so appealing and are at the right price point that they sell IN SPITE of the terrible customer service and dealer network. Just anecdotally, I'd say about 10-20% of people on these forums who have problems are satisfied with their dealer and Chrysler and how they were handled. But there are far more who had major issues with how they were treated. And yes, I have an axe to grind in that department. But I am a Jeep fan and I still hope they work these things out. I still own my Wrangler and love it. Toledo built a damn fine vehicle for me, and I am grateful to all the workers there. I know Jefferson takes great pride in the vehicles they build there, and rightfully so. The issues I have with Chrylser/Jeep are mostly with corporate, and the local dealers (and regional service).

Bottom line -- had Chrysler/Jeep taken care of me and stood behind my $40K automobile, I'd still be a happy customer. They didn't, and I'm not.

Strange thing is when Chrysler closed CycleWeld, the Japanese, bought, stripped, and flew back to Japan all of the high tech equipment in that plant (a lot of which my dad had installed and maintained). They especially wanted the paint mixers. Yet people hold up the foreign vehicles as quality as compared to ours. No thank you. I will take a Grand Cherokee or Cherokee even with problems over any foreign vehicle any day.

I wasn't going to make this into a foreign/domestic issue, but since you mention it, is it coincidence that ALL of the five Japanese-built vehicles I've owned in the last 20 years had absolutely zero issues with anything over the course of time I had them (OK, there was a TSB for my Mazdaspeed6 for a turbo heatsoak issue) while the first new American-built vehicle I've bought had severe enough problems that it qualified for a buyback?

 

[frenche]

I don't consider myself one to complain, but when my 2014 GC Summit 4x4 at $55k, doesn't start and it takes me 5 tries (today on my lunch hour)...that's a problem amongst all the other issues I'm having. Nor should the black crystal pearl paint be covered in 2-3'' cloudy spots under the clearcoat. This is not minor, this is unacceptable.

 

[Peter_K]

Here's the interesting thing about all this quality talk. If you look at the actual raw statistics (2013), and when someone isn't skewing them by changing graph scales, the difference between the "best" in terms of problems per 100 vehicles vs. the worst isn't that huge. The scale goes from around 80 or so (Porsche) to 161 (Scion -- hmm...Toyota anyone?). The industry average is around 113, and Jeep by itself sits just slightly below the industry average at 118, above Volkswagon, Mazda, Subaru, Nissan, and others.

For the most part, the manufacturers cluster in a fairly small range here and note that a lot of these "problems" aren't major among any of them.

Those who state that Jeep just simply has quality issues that are SO much worse than the rest of the industry simply don't have the figures to back it up.

Would I like to see better numbers for ALL the manufacturers? Sure. Including Jeep. But there simply aren't MASSIVE differences going on here.


From J.D. Powers:

 

[bill_de]

I do believe there are a lot of cry baby Jeep owners. There are also too many folks with legitimate complaints.

AMC2002 is the epitome of someone who, through all the serious problems, was rooting for his Jeep. He kept his cool (mostly) and gave Jeep every opportunity to keep his vehicle running 'safely' down the highway. They couldn't do it.

As for expecting the Grand Cherokee to be rugged and luxurious, that is the promise, and if they don't live up to the promise, shame on Chrysler.


---

 

[TurboRush]

Here's the interesting thing about all this quality talk. If you look at the actual raw statistics (2013), and when someone isn't skewing them by changing graph scales, the difference between the "best" in terms of problems per 100 vehicles vs. the worst isn't that huge. The scale goes from around 80 or so (Porsche) to 161 (Scion -- hmm...Toyota anyone?). The industry average is around 113, and Jeep by itself sits just slightly below the industry average at 118, above Volkswagon, Mazda, Subaru, Nissan, and others.

For the most part, the manufacturers cluster in a fairly small range here and note that a lot of these "problems" aren't major among any of them.

Those who state that Jeep just simply has quality issues that are SO much worse than the rest of the industry simply don't have the figures to back it up.

Would I like to see better numbers for ALL the manufacturers? Sure. Including Jeep. But there simply aren't MASSIVE differences going on here.

From J.D. Powers:

These graphs always surprise me in terms of where manufactures fall and small variances for some.

Simply in my own conceptions (obviously misconceptions) I'm surprised Chevy, Jag is that "good" and Subaru and scion is that "bad"... Guess old beliefs die hard

 

[2014 summit]

I'd be happy if Chrysler/Jeep just brought their dealership chain, auto technicians, quality control, and customer service into the 21st century. Take a walk through a Toyota or Honda dealership to see how it's done right.

Don't get me wrong, I love my 2014 GC, but I had A LOT of initial issues...and it looks I'll have more to come with this latest recall.



This is my first Jeep product, and to tell you the truth, I'm not all that impressed.

Diddo here on everything you've said. WE purchased the 2014 GC Summit loaded, still in the shop after 8 days.

 

[2014 summit]

Here's the interesting thing about all this quality talk. If you look at the actual raw statistics (2013), and when someone isn't skewing them by changing graph scales, the difference between the "best" in terms of problems per 100 vehicles vs. the worst isn't that huge. The scale goes from around 80 or so (Porsche) to 161 (Scion -- hmm...Toyota anyone?). The industry average is around 113, and Jeep by itself sits just slightly below the industry average at 118, above Volkswagon, Mazda, Subaru, Nissan, and others.

For the most part, the manufacturers cluster in a fairly small range here and note that a lot of these "problems" aren't major among any of them.

Those who state that Jeep just simply has quality issues that are SO much worse than the rest of the industry simply don't have the figures to back it up.

Would I like to see better numbers for ALL the manufacturers? Sure. Including Jeep. But there simply aren't MASSIVE differences going on here.


From J.D. Powers:

Funny I had a 2011 Nissan Xterra and a 2012 370Z and never had one tiny little problem with either vehicle. I'm not buying this whole chart, my GC Summit has been in the shop more times than the last 7 new vehicles I've owned (2007 to 2013). The other 5 were Fords and they didn't have problems like the Jeep. I had 2 Shelby's 2007 & 2010 one 2012 Raptor one 2011 Edge one 2012 SEL Focus and 2 F-150 Platinums 2009 & 2010 and like I said never had the problems my Jeep has experienced since purchasing it in May 2013. Really like the product just not the continuous barrage of issues, crap we just want to drive the darn thing and enjoy it. Well we do get to drive it I guess, back and forth to the dealership.

 

[Peter_K]

Funny I had a 2011 Nissan Xterra and a 2012 370Z and never had one tiny little problem with either vehicle. I'm not buying this whole chart, my GC Summit has been in the shop more times than the last 7 new vehicles I've owned (2007 to 2013). The other 5 were Fords and they didn't have problems like the Jeep. I had 2 Shelby's 2007 & 2010 one 2012 Raptor one 2011 Edge one 2012 SEL Focus and 2 F-150 Platinums 2009 & 2010 and like I said never had the problems my Jeep has experienced since purchasing it in May 2013. Really like the product just not the continuous barrage of issues, crap we just want to drive the darn thing and enjoy it. Well we do get to drive it I guess, back and forth to the dealership.

And here we go. J.D. Powers has been one of the most widely used and respected statistical groups for determining vehicle quality ratings -- among other things. But...because YOU had SPECIFIC experiences, their data must be made up or something. Come on already. If you note, some people have good experiences with specific vehicles...some people bad. Some have problems to report...some fewer, some more, some none. When this data is gathered and analyzed, this is one of the charts you get. Simple as that. It isn't a lie or skewed or biased simply because it doesn't match YOUR singular experience with each type of car.

For example...I've known 3 people with no end of issues on their Fords, including an F-150 and an Edge. Ah! Now we have a sample set that includes more than just you. Just looking at YOUR data says Ford is awesome. Looking at yours and the ones I mentioned now says Ford is doing rather poorly. Start adding it all up with MORE samples and then you can start making charts like the one given by J.D. Powers.

 

[GCLimited]

And here we go. J.D. Powers has been one of the most widely used and respected statistical groups for determining vehicle quality ratings -- among other things.

I trust Consumer Reports WAY more than I would ever trust JD Power.

For example...I've known 3 people with no end of issues on their Fords, including an F-150 and an Edge. Ah! Now we have a sample set that includes more than just you. Just looking at YOUR data says Ford is awesome. Looking at yours and the ones I mentioned now says Ford is doing rather poorly. Start adding it all up with MORE samples and then you can start making charts like the one given by J.D. Powers.

I'll tell you want I do know...about 35,000 hits on my thread "I Think I Fixed My Rough Shifting Transmission" here on this site. So it's safe to assume that I'm not the only one having transmission issues for instance.

 

[Peter_K]

I trust Consumer Reports WAY more than I would ever trust JD Power.

Why? Because one supports your rhetoric right now and one doesn't in generalities?

I'll tell you want I do know...about 35,000 hits on my thread "I Think I Fixed My Rough Shifting Transmission" here on this site. So it's safe to assume that I'm not the only one having transmission issues for instance.

Uh...you do realize that 35,000 "hits" doesn't mean 35,000 people:

1) Have the problem
2) Are separate individuals. The number ticks up anytime someone views it, even if they viewed it before.

You know that, right?

And FYI...I've never said there weren't improvements that could be made to the transmission's shift quality on the V6 models. But...that tends to happen with first-year models and transmissions with software shift schedules and control. I know that. I've seen THAT on practically every make and model out there when a new transmission design is introduced (especially more complicated ones or ones with more gear ratios than previously). They generally get sorted out within the model year, and there's generally no way to completely test for this. Different people drive differently, and until you get a large, representative number of people in the set, you can only shoot for best guesses. In addition, unless it's REALLY bad (as in, can damage things or affect operation), as long as it's in the 80th percentile it'll go to production with the plan to update it in the field.

For things like first year release transmissions under software control, if you want perfect, I'd recommend avoiding them from any manufacturer. You'll have to put up with a little weirdness as it gets sorted out over the first 6-12 months.

And no, you can't test that out. Sorry...you're a bit of a beta-tester here no matter how much you, or the manufacturer, doesn't like it. It's simply not feasible to build thousands of test vehicles to get a representative number of transmission builds with their little variances and test software that has myriads of inputs and outputs with thousands of different drivers before releasing it. It goes through testing--quite a lot, but you can't scale it like that to see how it needs to be tweaked without much more input. Every mass-market car manufacturer would go out of business trying to do that because you wouldn't be able to afford the vehicles.