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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My 2013 JGC 3.6L (116,000 miles) recently developed a ticking noise that I was sure was an exhaust leak near the head/manifold. I had an appointment with the dealer to do the alternator recall anyway, so I asked them to look into the exhaust leak.

Just got the call. A couple of the roller rocker arms are bad and have probably worn lobes on one or both of the camshafts on that drivers side bank. Wasn't expecting this $1200 bill.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
I want to add that I have always changed the oil before required and I only use Castol Edge full synthetic oil and WIX oil filters.
 

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Well, Castrol is the one that started this movement of marketing Group III oils as "Full Synthetic". But today everyone is using Group III Oil and calling it "Full Synthetic", except for the exotic oil blenders. And its not like Group III oil is bad, its actually darn good oil, its just not Group IV oil that previously considered "True Synthetic".

Group III is crude oil that goes through a hydrocracking process that does "synthesis" the oil molecue somewhat. So the trademark courts said that was good enough to declare it "Full Synthetic".

Group IV oil is truly chemically synthesised from base gases to create fully synthetic oil.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks Mongo. So, do I want or need Group IV? And, how do I select Group IV?

Now that the JGC has 117k miles, do I even worry about this? Should I go with "high mileage" type oils?
 

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I use Group III Oil in my Vehicles, personally I use Mobil1 Full Synthetic, but Mobil1 Full Synthetic hasn't met the Chrysler's engine oil spec (there is a reason why its bogus). I sometimes use Valvoline Syntec.

I only mention it, since Synthetic used to be Group IV until Castrol pulled their games and the courts (to everyone's shock) decided for them, calling Synthetic a Marketing term. So now every bottle of synthetic oil you find on the shelf is Group III, the profit margin is just to attractive. So it just sticks in my craw, that's all.

Even AMSOIL is offering a Group III engine oil, as a lower cost alternative (I think they call it their OEM Brand).

Group III oil is extremely good oil, just short of Group IV, so yea, go ahead and use it.

It is a perfectly legitimate argument that;

Modern Conventional Oil has been vastly improved, if you do normal driving, in normal conditions, and change the oil and filter when recommended, it will more than adequately protect your engine the life of the car. Synthetic Oil is a waste of money.

BTW, Group II is conventional motor oil on the shelves.

So yea, paying even more than Group III for Group IV, when Group II is adequate? Group III will serve you just fine.

A couple of things to keep in mind; Normal Driving in Normal Conditions means:
No heavy traffic
No Towing
No off-roading
No driving in snow
No driving in dusty conditions
No Short Trips
No extended idling
No aggressive driving
No driving in extreme temps, hot or cold
Basically Driving like a little old lady going to church on Sunny Sunday mornings

The life of your car means:
Take a look at your Owners Manual; the maintenance schedule ends about 150k miles.... and its only goes that far for what the manufacturer's consider are 3rd owners....

The people recommending a fluid lasts the life of the car consider the life of the car to be 100k miles. Hey a couple of decades ago, the life was considered 50k miles.

So, if you only do a mild commute with your Jeep and plan on trading it in within 5 years, then yea, Conventional Oil is adequate, Synthetic is overkill.

If you plan on keeping your Jeep past 100k miles and are demanding on it and use it in more extreme conditions, you'll benefit from Synthetic Oil, including Group III Oils. Remember, occasional spirited driving (like flooring the accelerator and running the motor up to redline) is extreme enough you should consider Grp III synthetic.

The only way I think Group IV is even close to cost effective if you do the extended oil/filter change interval, something I'm not willing to bite off on just yet. But people have and had good results.

Some examples of Group IV motor Oil:
Royal Purple
AMSOIL (their cheaper OEM Motor Oil I believe is Grp III)
Redline
And I'm sure there are others I forgot and some will post....

You usually can't find them on store shelves and if you do, they cost twice as much, so you see why I call them "exotic" oil. Nothing wrong with them, except the cost, just saying they are the "Lamborghini" of oils.....
 

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Oh, Chrysler's Motor Oil spec, I think its MS-6395?

If you're in warranty, you want to make sure any fluid you use meets the Chrysler spec stated in the owner's manual.

And those specs are good, you should make sure to use them always. And make sure the fluid labeling states the exact Chrysler spec you're looking for. There are plenty of Power Steering Fluids sold on store shelves saying it meets Ford, GM, Chrysler specs, but its specs from decades ago and doesn't meet the latest or special spec for your Chrysler vehicle, and using that PS fluid would guarantee PS damage down the road.

So we all know the game, if you use a fluid that doesn't meet the spec, we'll the Dealer will deny the warranty claim and blame it on you. If you use any old Power Steering fluid off the shelf, then yea, it is your fault. If you use a superior fluid with a good reputation, but doesn't meet the spec, there may be one property of the fluid that is lacking and caused all the problems, its just not as simple as, AMSOIL makes superior fluid and has a great rep, if its the wrong fluid, doesn't matter how good it is, its still the wrong fluid.

But there are a few exceptions, Chrysler's spec MS-6395 is one to consider. 99% of the spec is like other motor oil specs and every reputable brand of motor oil meets those specs. But Chrysler added one more spec to their MS-6395 spec, that is a Multiple Season Change test. So testing the your oil to prove it meets the spec has just become very lengthy and expensive, so you can see why some oils just haven't spent the time and money to put the spec on their label.

Mobil1 Full Synthetic is a perfect example, people have been using Mobil1 full synthetic in chrysler motors for decades and never have a problem. Its considered the best synthetic on store shelves by most people. BTW, many of mobil products do meet MS-6395, its just that Mobil hasn't spent the time and money to get the label on their Mobil1 full synthetic products.

Remember, the 5.7L Hemi with MDS, the MDS is calibrated to work with 5W-20 motor oil, the little solenoid valves disabling cylinders to turn the V8 into a V-4 timing will be thrown off if you use a different viscosity. It is warned about several times in the O.M.

Another exception, ATF+4. Chrysler developed ATF+4 over several versions, starting with ATF+. It has the friction properties necessary for Electronic Controlled Transmissions, but what they found out with their first Electronically Controlled Transmissions is that they ran extremely hot and were very demanding on the fluid (Chrysler Bean Counters constantly reducing the cooling capacity of the trans is just at fault for Chryslers Transmissions woes, IMO). So Chrysler finally got the jump in transmission durability they were looking for when they came up with ATF+4.

What makes ATF+4 the miracle fluid? Its synthetic base oil, using a special high durability additive package. So what is need in ATF+4 applications? It has to have the right friction property's, which many ATF's have today for electronic transmissions, and it has to be top of the line in durability for an ATF. Very, very few trans fluids meet the durability of ATF+4, so yea, when they say use ATF+4, don't substitute any old fluid, you're likely using an inferior fluid.

Its licensed and the only way for a company to label their transmission fluid ATF+4 is to follow the precise formula to make it just as Chrysler demands.

Using ATF+4 as Power Steering Fluid? The first PS system used ATF. But PS systems became more demanding over the years and regular ATF did not measure up to the demands, so they had to have special more durable PS fluid. With ATF+4, we've come full circle, the fluid is so superior in durability, its good enough for many PS systems.

NOTE: the previous generation WK/XK had a hydraulic engine fan powered by the Power Steering Pump (with the HEMI engine), the demands of this system were so incredibly high that even ATF+4 didn't meet it, it required a special hybrid hydraulic/power steering fluid only available from the dealer. This fluid was used in some Chrysler Convertibles that had a hydraulically powered opening/closing roof that was powered by the PS pump. So, ATF+4 isn't perfect for all PS systems, and in fact some older cars, way before ATF+4 came into being, retrofitting to ATF+4 in the PS system can cause noise in the cold.

So this brings me to using a better fluid than ATF+4 in your trans/PS? You're not going to find one on the shelves. But some of the exotic oil producers do make an ATF that is more than adequate, but since they don't follow Chrysler exact formula in making it, they can't get licensed to put ATF+4 on the label. But, it has the right friction property's and top of the line in Durability for Transmission Fluids, that is why they work as well if not better. I and many others have used AMSOIL signature series (it appears to me, AMSOIL signature series means its Group IV synthetic oil) multi-vehicle fully synthetic ATF and have had great results. Again, if you're in warranty, only use the Spec Fluid, you use AMSOIL's ATF, doesn't matter how good it is and that no one else using it has ever had a problem, they will use the fact you didn't use the right fluid to deny your warranty claim.
 

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Thanks Mongo. So, do I want or need Group IV? And, how do I select Group IV?

Now that the JGC has 117k miles, do I even worry about this? Should I go with "high mileage" type oils?
Best I can tell, these "High Mileage" oils have some additional additives to address wear on the engine. Some of the literature I have seen talk about having additives to condition seals and other things the snake oil additives talk about.

So it really depends, most of my cars I have switched to Mobil1 Full Synthetic after break-in*, and have seen very little signs of internal engine wear past 75k miles, so I don't really see the need to have extra additives in the oil for something I'm not suffering. But if your motor is showing some signs of internal wear, what the hey, it can't hurt.

Snake Oil? Some of the additives truly are snake oil, I think the "Z" additives were sent to an independent lab and tested and oil they could find in the additive was pure mineral oil and dye. Independent labs have proven the "Teflon" oil additives do absolutely nothing like they claim and produce no lasting effect on the motor (in fact teflon suppliers refused to sell them teflon because of this, but they sued them into providing the teflon). But some of the additives do have some chemicals that can provide some benefit along the lines that they claim. But again, an additive can't repair something, all it can do is provide a little improvement over the symptoms, if you vehicle needs repaired, pouring a bottle of liquid into it isn't going to fix it.

So yea, if you're motor is burning a little oil, perhaps these "High Mileage" oils might reduce the amount of the oil burning by conditioning the seals a bit, etc, etc......

*break-in of new motors. Today's cars, the engines are built to last longer using much higher quality materials than years ago. So break-in has changed to the point of constant debate, to include break-in isn't even necessary anymore. Best recommendations I have seen about switching to Synthetic Oil in brand new motors, often from the Synthetic Oil producers themselves is to wait until the 2nd oil change to switch. That the superior lubrication of the Synthetic Oil "MIGHT" reduce the development of wear patterns that occur during break in. That using conventional oil from the factory and then the first oil change, will allow the wear patterns to develop, and then you can go to SYnthetic Oil.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Wow! Thanks for all the info.

On the power steering fluid, my ps reservoir was dry when I first got the Jeep new. It has electric/hydraulic steering (electric motor drives power steering) so I suspected that Jeep had a specific fluid in mind for that. Sure enough, I had to get it at the dealer. I could of just had a warranty service done, but I was just putting a little ps fluid in. still have a half filled bottle of the stuff in the garage.

You didn't mention coolant. I haven't found coolant that meets the spec as stated in my owners manual. I replaced the original thermostat and needed some coolant to refill. The local auto parts store had some that met a Jeep/Chrysler spec, but not the one mentioned in the owners manual. So, to the dealer I went to get the Mopar spec'd stuff. Now that my Jeep is no longer in warranty, I'm guessing I could probably risk using something else, but why tempt fate.
 

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All anti-freeze use the same ethyl-glycol (well you can get propylene-glycol, but its not recommended for CHrysler vehicles, people have used it without much difficulty) as the anti-freeze ingredient.....

What makes all the difference and causes all the problems is corrosion inhibitor package....

IAT = Inorganic Acid Technology, the old conventional green anti-freeze, uses silicates and phosphates to coat the cooling system to prevent corrosion, phosphates actual fill in metal damage that comes from cavitation that happens in the cooling system, especially on the water pump. Short life, because the silicates and phosphates can form solids or chemically react with minerals in the water and cause scaling on the cooling system.

OAT = Organic Acid Technology, uses chemicals that react with the metal surfaces and create a different kind of corrosion layer on the surface that prevents the bad kind of corrosion from happening. It takes several thousand miles to get the reaction going where the metal is unprotected, the anti-freeze has to be in contact with the metal surface to protect, so if you have air in the cooling system corrosion can happen. The chemicals can react with other anti-freeze's and cause all sorts of gunk to form. It won't protect brass, bronze or copper used in older cooling systems. OAT does nothing to protect water pumps, and most of the manufacturers developed new water pumps and cooling systems that cavitate far less and can last without the protection that the old IAT anti-freeze used to provide.

Dexcool is GM's version of OAT, they use a chemical in their package that none of the other manufacturers would, it can soften or swell plastics and seal used in older cooling systems and is even more reactive than any of the other OAT's with other anti-freezes. The first couple of versions of Dexcool were famous for forming Orange Goop all through the cooling system after the owner would top off with some IAT anti-freeze.

All the manufacturers reformulate the different anti-freezes every couple of years, so they are constantly improving. Dexcool is not nearly as problematic as it was the first couple of years. Same with IAT, all sorts of horror stories in the 70's and early, but they got it right ever since, they just can't get it to last as long as they want.

HOAT = Hybrid Organic Acid Technology, its OAT with the milder, less reactive and more tolerant to other anti-freeze and tap water minerals than other OAT's and it has some silicates from the IAT anti-freezes to do some coating to protect. It's the most tolerant, maybe better protection than OAT (depending on who you ask) that lasts almost as long as OAT. Right now HOAT lasts 100k miles and 5 years. While OATs are going out to 150k miles, even 200k miles and 10 years life.

Chrysler used the good ol' IAT anti-freeze, the conventional green anti-freeze, up till the late 90's, early 00's..... ...short life (still probably the best protecting anti-freeze right up to the end of its 2 year, 30k mile life, then all sorts of things can go wrong with it, and that is the biggest reason all the manufacturers were switching to long life anti-freeze, no one was servicing their cooling system, then when they had cooling system damage, they blamed the manufacturer for their own neglect).

Then they switched to the long life;
GM and many of Japanese brands went with OAT; GM went with their Dexcool version of OAT which is the worst of all the OAT forms of anti-freeze in mine and many people's opinion.

Chrysler, Ford and many of the European brands went with HOAT. In fact the exact same HOAT formulation for Ford, Chrysler and Mercedes. Zerex G-05 is Ford/Chrysler/Mercedes HOAT exactly. Its dyed Ford's Amber instead of Chrysler/Mercedes Orange-Pink color, cause Ford has more vehicles using HOAT than Chrysler/Mercedes combined.

Somewhere around 2015 Chrysler started switching to their version of OAT. I think closer to the VW or Japanese versions of OAT and not the GM Dexcool. I forget the figures, but I remember the switch to OAT for Chrysler came with a longer life, I'm guessing 150k miles and 8 years? At least longer than the 100k/5yr of HOAT.

I'm also disappointed by the info in the Owner's Manuals since FIAT has taken over, they really don't tell you exactly what you need for a lot of things. They basically leave up to, just bring it to the Dealer and pay twice as much for lousy, cutting corner service that will likely use the wrong stuff anyway. On another forum for Jeeps, we had folks posting their dealer service receipts, it was really shocking, often insanely overcharged, doing service at wrong intervals or even things recommended against by Chrysler or what was in the service manual. And the most disappointing, the dealer often used the wrong fluid, different and often inferior to what was recommended in the owner's manual.

Don't even get me started on the proprietary diagnostics that they keep from the owners and independent shops, to force people into dealerships that just keep getting worse the more the manufacturers insulate them from competition with this proprietary crap, but at least all of the manufacturers were pulling this crap, not just FCA. Seriously, if you had to sign a software users agreement honestly written before purchasing your car, you would storm out and refuse to buy it.

I think the best way to tell what is recommended for your Jeep by Chrysler is what is the change interval recommended in the Owner's Manual. If they recommend roughly 100k miles or 5 years whichever comes first, then it has to be HOAT. If they recommend roughly 150k miles or more than 5 years, than its probably Chrysler's version of OAT anti-freeze. If its HOAT, you can use Zerex G-05 at half the price of the Dealership.
 

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Now, on the Electric Power Steering.....

The electric power steering systems have an electric motor in the steering rack that boosts or assists the steering force.

With the crammed engine compartments today (from the higher crash standards that make bigger frames intruding in on the engine compartment) they have had to do some strange things. Like put the power steering pump in such hard to reach places they have to use a remote PS reservoir in accessible location, with hoses running to the pump.

I've mentioned the previous versions, the WK/XK Hemi was so crammed they couldn't fit an electric fan between the engine and radiator and had to use a hydraulic power fan instead, run off the PS pump.

I have yet to hear of a hydraulic PS system driven by an electric motor. While such a thing is possible, it would be inefficient and not cost effective. Why add the cost of a high power electric motor and the drain on the charging system and battery, when you could just use one of the many fully electric PS systems becoming more and more commonplace today?

Are you sure you might not be misinterpreting one these tortured engine driven hydraulic systems, as being electric driven? You sound like you know what you're talking about, so if you're sure, please tell me which year/make/model and option this vehicle is that has an electric motor driven PS pump? I'm curious?
 

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And the worst thing about anti-freeze today, none of the aftermarket, with the exception of Zerex, is identifying what is in their anti-freeze. What is going on is absolutely outrageous, and our news industry can't be bothered to deal with something as pedestrian as millions of people being deceived and ripped off. But judging from the reporters I have meet they are too poorly educated, ignorant and just plain dull in intelligence to understand anti-freeze.

Prestone has lost in court, told they can not make the claims they are making, yet they continue to claim "All Makes, All Models, mixes with any color anti-freeze".

The anti-freeze aftermarket has resorted to listing NJ Trade Secret Act references to avoid listing the actual ingredients. They got tired of customers calling and asking why the ingredient label on their Dexcool is identical to their "All Makes, All Models, Mixes with any color anti-freeze" it seems they are the same just dyed different colors.

It's been a few years, but I would check the ingredients and/or the ATSM listings, and without fail, if they identify what type of anti-freeze it was, it was the same ingredients list as GM Dexcool. Today, if the anti-freeze doesn't list exactly what type it is or its application, I refuse to buy it. And sadly more stores than not, only stock these kinds of anti-freeze today.

No kidding, most of these anti-freezes today are just GM Dexcool in generic packaging. Only the fact that GM Dexcool has been so improved over the years is the only reason there isn't a consumer revolt. Cause early versions of Dexcool would be destroying one cooling system after another.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
It is a 2013 JGC Laredo X with 3.6L V6

The pictures show what I believe to be a power steering pump. Note the two hoses with blue on the clamps and the pipe that goes under the front (lower) connector with red on it. One of the two hoses goes to the PS reservoir. The other hose goes to the PS cooler on the front. The metal tubing is part of a pressure hose that goes to the steering rack. Then there is another hose between the steering rack and the cooler.

The only two things that are belt driven are the alternator and the A/C compressor.

bonnet.jpg

bonnet2.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Also, the PS reservoir cap indicates to use MS.11655. The bottle I have shows this spec and is labeled as "Electric Steering Pump Fluid".
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I think some newer vehicles are going to all electric steering with no hydraulic component. I think some of the newer RAM 1500 pickups have this. I might be mistaken.
 

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Yea, I just looked in the 2011 parts catalog I have and it shows a different power steering pump, that looks like a manifold with a pump on one side and an electric motor on the other.

It says its just for the Turbo V6 Diesel, do you have the turbo v6 diesel?

I've got to wonder why they did it differently just for the diesel? Is the motor too big to fit accessories on it inside the engine compartment?

Cause I have a Hemi and its an engine driven PS pump and the parts catalog shows the same for the V6 gasoline engine?
 

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My 2013 JGC 3.6L (116,000 miles) recently developed a ticking noise that I was sure was an exhaust leak near the head/manifold. I had an appointment with the dealer to do the alternator recall anyway, so I asked them to look into the exhaust leak.

Just got the call. A couple of the roller rocker arms are bad and have probably worn lobes on one or both of the camshafts on that drivers side bank. Wasn't expecting this $1200 bill.
Not sure if your post is about the heads or type of oil you’re using... or wish to use. The oil you’re using has nothing to do with the failing 3.6L pentastar rocket arms.

.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Mongo, I have the 3.6 Pentastar V6. Not diesel and no turbo.

a9, the original post is about the rocker arms issue. I just wanted to point out that it wasn't due to me not changing oil regularly.
 
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