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If compare coal to each individual source, you're correct. However, if you read my post more carefully, you'll see I was referring to electricity production as a whole, not any one source.

Compared to all sources of energy, it means coal is just over 1/3 of the energy production, and falling.

Further, I would dispute that flat curve for coal for future projections.

Not only are coal plants becoming less favorable for approval of new builds, some are slated for decommissioning or retrofit to natural gas. By that alone, that graph should show a larger decrease, not an essentially flat level.

Further, I don't buy that natural gas will continue a steady increase through 2040. It's not going to happen. It's popular now with all the latest discovery and cost reductions, but it will fall out of favor long before 2040. Further, alternative energy is absolutely going to achieve much greater efficiency by then, meaning it will be practical for nearly every building to use things like solar for a quarter or more of it's use.

If that graph were accurate, there should be a much larger NG spike toward 2020, with a falloff toward 2040 as other renewable sources become for practical and come on line.

There are already technologies that are on the cusp of release that allow windows and paint to contain solar collection elements, which would allow buildings and vehicles to use their full surfaces to generate power. Further, those elements are increasing the amount of power they provide.

At some point, you won't have to even plug your car in when you stop somewhere on a sunny day.
All of that is already taken into account when the pro's like the EIA make these charts. Just because you disagree with organizations who's job it is to make accurate predictions, doesn't mean it's true. You know what they say about opinions..

We rely so much on coal. Coal isn't going anywhere. At least for the first half of this century and I'd wager for the entire century. Renewable's will also take a LONG time to grow. Expensive for not a lot of energy return.

I don't get the lack of range argument. I can count the number of days a year that I drive more than 200 miles on one hand. I would bet most people would say the same. You just plug in when you get home, and by morning, you have a full charge again. Most of the charging would be done at night, when demand is normally low, so cost and impact is low. Even on trips you could deal with charging, but I don't think that is really where those cars are for.
There is a big difference between the freedom of going greater than 200 miles range five times per year, or 500. Guess what, it's not so rosy when that freedom is removed and you are locked down into 200 miles range or less. So even if you only go greater than 200 miles per year five times, those five times you are left with a huge headache/money sink. Not fun.

So? Almost no buyers of any sort of SUV or CUV will ever drive them on a gravel driveway, much less off road.
I couldn't give a crap less about "most buyers". The whole reason the SUV segment started was to do better than car's in bad weather and off-road conditions. If you want more space, simply get a wagon.

For a few days a year, people can rent whatever they want.
Ya, I'm sure the first thing on the top of a $120,000 SUV's buyers head is "when can I go out and get that rental car!".
 

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Discussion Starter #63
The so called carbon footprint of manufacturing an electric vehicle may be larger (because of the huge battery pack) than an ICE vehicle NOW, that will soon change as battery technology continues to evolve. So for me, that is a total non-issue.

I would much rather have 7300 power plants in the United States generating electricity and controlling the solution output than 253,000,000 ICE vehicles in the Unites States that aren't efficient and have various levels of exhaust maintenance. The air would be enormously cleaner and the streets would be so much quieter. Electric vehicles (at least for passenger vehicles) is the future and as I stated before, once the electric versus ICE cost lines cross ICE vehicles will become economically obsolete just like cathode ray tube TV's.

I also realize that a Tesla Model X does not have the same capabilities as my beloved Jeep Grand Cherokees throughout the years. But realistically, for my actual use, the Tesla Model X would fit my needs. Will I switch.....dunno.....but tempting and worth a look.

Tesla, instead of building a toy/golf cart car, built a car that showed you can build a "real" car that is electric, one so impressive that many aspire to own versus a joke. Performance wise it is superior in many respects to an ICE car.
 

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It is completely amazing to me how we continue to innovate in regards to efficiency and the ability to harness energy by alternative means, outside oil.

Tesla is a testament to the future of automotive and energy/power industries. The X model would accommodate my family needs for size and road worthiness. It doesn't come close to the Jeep for everything else, but maybe I'm the one who wants the extras (off road capability, nostalgia). Regardless, maybe Tesla is building exactly what we need. 4 wheels, safe, and efficient (getting from A to B).


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Phil
 

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It is completely amazing to me how we continue to innovate in regards to efficiency and the ability to harness energy by alternative means, outside oil.

Tesla is a testament to the future of automotive and energy/power industries. The X model would accommodate my family needs for size and road worthiness. It doesn't come close to the Jeep for everything else, but maybe I'm the one who wants the extras (off road capability, nostalgia). Regardless, maybe Tesla is building exactly what we need. 4 wheels, safe, and efficient (getting from A to B).


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Phil
It is completely amazing to me how we continue to innovate in regards to efficiency and the ability to harness energy by alternative means, outside oil.

Tesla is a testament to the future of automotive and energy/power industries. The X model would accommodate my family needs for size and road worthiness. It doesn't come close to the Jeep for everything else, but maybe I'm the one who wants the extras (off road capability, nostalgia). Regardless, maybe Tesla is building exactly what we need. 4 wheels, safe, and efficient (getting from A to B).


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Phil
The so called carbon footprint of manufacturing an electric vehicle may be larger (because of the huge battery pack) than an ICE vehicle NOW, that will soon change as battery technology continues to evolve. So for me, that is a total non-issue.

I would much rather have 7300 power plants in the United States generating electricity and controlling the solution output than 253,000,000 ICE vehicles in the Unites States that aren't efficient and have various levels of exhaust maintenance. The air would be enormously cleaner and the streets would be so much quieter. Electric vehicles (at least for passenger vehicles) is the future and as I stated before, once the electric versus ICE cost lines cross ICE vehicles will become economically obsolete just like cathode ray tube TV's.

I also realize that a Tesla Model X does not have the same capabilities as my beloved Jeep Grand Cherokees throughout the years. But realistically, for my actual use, the Tesla Model X would fit my needs. Will I switch.....dunno.....but tempting and worth a look.

Tesla, instead of building a toy/golf cart car, built a car that showed you can build a "real" car that is electric, one so impressive that many aspire to own versus a joke. Performance wise it is superior in many respects to an ICE car.
In Germany, it has been estimated that the carbon footprint of electric vehicles is slightly greater than that of internal combustion engined vehicles. The reason being that 40% of Germany's electricity is generated from fossil fuel. This is one reason Germany is desperate to reduce its reliance on coal. 69% of the USA's electriciuty is generated from fossil fuel. So, if you are contemplating buying a Tesla in order to bask in environmental smugness, it may be premature.
 

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In Germany, it has been estimated that the carbon footprint of electric vehicles is slightly greater than that of internal combustion engined vehicles. The reason being that 40% of Germany's electricity is generated from fossil fuel. This is one reason Germany is desperate to reduce its reliance on coal. 69% of the USA's electriciuty is generated from fossil fuel. So, if you are contemplating buying a Tesla in order to bask in environmental smugness, it may be premature.
Despite lot's of fossil fuel plants that do produce electricity it is still way more efficient to run an EV over ICE.

The reason is fossil fuel plants are way more efficient than the fossil fuel plant under your hood. There is a lot of excess power that can't be used in your ICE, but is used in the fossil fuel plant.

There are losses in conversion to electricity, losses in transmission, losses in getting it into your battery. But it still beats running your private fossil fuel plant under your hood.

Starting in 2015 I switched to Solar and now run on Two EV's.
In 2014 my total energy cost (Electricity, Gasoline, Natural Gas, Oil Heat) was $7000 / Year (includes a vacation home and two ICE cars).
In 2019 I paid $288.00 (Still had Jeep for 9 months of 2019)
In 2020 I will make about $750.00 (Chevy Volt and Model X Tesla)

I am using some gas in the Volt about 12 gallons every 1000 miles.

My CO2 footprint will v close to net zero (in energy consumption, the little bit of fossil fuel I still use is offset by some excess Solar I push to my neighbors).
Comments above by BobT are partially correct in understanding the cost of EV batteries to the environment, which is not fully understood yet.

My Solar plan, covers all my usage plus they pay me ~$2000 a year for helping out on the grid during peak usage.

Yeah, I'm as smug as a pig in sh$t. I'm saving $80K over 10 years.



Oh and while I'm at it, check out this recent Euro Safety Evaluation of the Tesla Model X. (Model 3 was just as good and Model Y probably will be too).


They have not tested a recent Grand Cherokee but they have done a recent Cherokee, check out the Pole Test and Crash Avoidance

 

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Discussion Starter #67
I did buy a 2018 JGC about 2.5 years ago. If I have a single family home, versus condo tower thing, I'd be looking at an electric something or other but kinda of a big hassle to set up in a condo building.
 

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I did buy a 2018 JGC about 2.5 years ago. If I have a single family home, versus condo tower thing, I'd be looking at an electric something or other but kinda of a big hassle to set up in a condo building.
Yep alot of times the HOA pays for electric in the garages and getting them to put in the 60amp circut is slim to none...
 

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Yep alot of times the HOA pays for electric in the garages and getting them to put in the 60amp circut is slim to none...
Just so you know, 60A is nice but typically way more than needed. I’ve seen folks struggling with condo situations and some succeeding in getting something installed.

I run 30A 240v at my primary home and 40A 240v at my vacation home. I already had the 30A circuit in my garage for a heater that I might use once a winter. So I just added an A/B switch for charging EV. And the Volt I charge with a 20A 120v outlet. So I didn’t need a new circuit for either car. Sure I might do two 60 A if I knew ahead.

You can see a table at this link for the charge rates for different size circuits for each model car. Figure the car will likely sit 10 hours or more overnight.

Wall Connector

Some folks get by with 15A 120v. That’s a little nuts, especially for Model X. But even a 20A 240v will get you a 100 miles overnight and be more than enough for most people.

One thing you also have to take into account is extreme cold. The car won’t charge if say it’s 0F out and the car sat overnight. It has to heat the battery some before it can start charging. If you only have a 15A 120v it would use most of that for a long time just to heat. Also realize your efficiency drops a LOT in extreme cold weather. The battery is fine, but the heater is expensive to run. So if I had a round trip commute of 50 miles, I'd want enough amps that I could add 100 miles overnight (in climates where it can get to single digits or below).

Also keep in mind that Model S and X have free super charging. So some folks charge what they can at home (or work) and use the supercharging for less frequent busy periods that are above their normal commute usage.

More amps is more convenience but not required.
 

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In my non-scientific observation of the world around me it seems like way more people than not don't have a garage or even a driveway in which they can park their car at night. Most families have two cars or more. Many have them parked on the street. Which makes me wonder, how will all those people, which seem like the vast majority to me, going to be able to use an electric vehicle when they seemingly have no place to plug it in at night to recharge it. And if they did have a way to get to a 20 or 30 amp plug for one of their cars, what about the other 1 or 2 cars for the family?
 

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That's a valid observation, Jim, at least in present times. Demographics are going to play a big roll in how increased adoption of EVs rolls out and where. Over time, at least in urban areas, perhaps more access to public transportation will decrease the need for individually owned vehicles and help with this a little, but for folks "blessed" with having to use on-street parking, this is going to present an interesting challenge for sure.
 

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Electrics are definitely not for everyone. I have been pondering a Tesla for about a year now. I have a high amp panel at home and also at work. There's also a superchargers nearby. The couple of places that I frequent on the weekend for relaxation also have a supercharger within walking distance. It would be my daily driver as I'd keep the Jeep for "work". The weather here is mild with very little super cold temperatures or frozen precip. As far as high payments, it's no different than any other luxury or performance vehicle if financed correctly. Gotta pay to play.
 

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keep on convincing your self a $1400 a month car payments a good idea
Who has payments? I don’t owe a penny on anything. Also the EV I have now is getting pretty darn close to Summit Diesel or higher trim (SRT etc.). And if you factor in fuel savings ($0.00 for me going forward and no oil changes and some other maintenance savings) it comes pretty close to similar cost of ownership of an upper end JEEP. You just end up paying more up front on the EV.

The new Cybertruck (I realize not for everyone, and not a reality yet) is amazingly cheap for its performance specs.

So keep convincing yourself your better off with ICE. The most common comment I see on the EV forums are. “I’ll never own another ICE”, “Tesla ruined how I think of cars”. Most of them are paying double what they formerly paid for a car.

Just as there is a range of ICE vehicles the range of EV choices is growing fast.

I’ve actually been using a lot of super charging lately. It’s pretty fast and I either pop into Panera Bread for a bite or I fire up NetFlix in full Dolby Surround on the Car Screen. Time goes by so fast, I sometimes stay a few minutes when the charge is done to finish what I was watching ;) Life’s a bitch when you can’t charge at home, I know.

Even the dogs enjoy it more with dog mode. They get to come even when the past I couldn’t chance it being to hot or cold. Now they can come any time.
 

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DO tell.... :D
It was so funny this past summer, it was a really hot humid evening and we went out for dinner. We got a great parking spot right at the restaurant entrance and we sat out doors on a terrace and could see the car and hear passers by. About 3/4 of the people walking out of the restaurant past the car stopped and checked it out running doggy mode and were blown away. Comments like “honey can we get a Tesla”. The doggy mode screen lit up the whole cabin so it really stood out at night. It was fun hearing the comments.

We have canceled trips in the past because to hot or to cold weather that we no longer have to worry about. Some times they are too far to leave pups home. I set timer a on my phone to double check cabin temperature every 10 minutes or so. And sometimes I’ll go physically verify it. It has run flawless. I was very skeptical at first but it’s one of favorite features. Silent, no fumes, and a neon sign to onlookers to know what’s going on and not to panic. And free advertising for the brand, genius.

Went to graduation party on the way home from our cabin. Told my sister in law the dogs were in the car. She was almost ready to call the police. Then I showed it to her. That shut her up quick.

The dogs are not loose like in the video. They are in the Cargo area usually sleeping comfortably on a dog bed.

There is now a new camping mode too. Not sure exactly what it does. You just don’t look at cars the same way. It’s a completely different experience.

 
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