[tallguy]

I would consider the 4Xe if Toyota were to supply the drivetrain and if it wasn't a plug in

 

[Pioneer4x4]

I would consider the 4Xe if Toyota were to supply the drivetrain and if it wasn't a plug in

Geez, talk about something you'd have to pay me to take.

 

[overboosted]

Geez, talk about something you'd have to pay me to take.

I'm not a fan of Toyota but one thing is sure, they are super reliable. I'd take an iForce 5.7 in a WL over the Hemi any day, but you'd have to pay me to buy a Toyota vehicle.

 

[f1anatic]

Let's work thru some photos:

License Plate Mounting

 

[GCOverland]

Let's work thru some photos:

License Plate Mounting

Great solution! Much better than drilling through the bumper. I consider myself lucky that we don't have front plates in FL.

 

[f1anatic]

So read Post # 35 WL Let's Talk 4Xe's

I unplugged the car, battery dropped to 99 %

Early in the morning, cold outside, heating used considerably more battery. Engine will either show either 0 kW (not on) or some larger positive number - i.e. it is generating that many kW of power. For the battery, if the value is positive, it means energy is being used. If the value is negative, energy is being transferred into the battery, either from regen braking or from ICE charging.

By the way, this is where you set up e-SAVE HOLD or CHARGE. Those are my settings.

The default is HYBRID but today I turned e-SAVE on. You can see in the lower left hand corner of the dashboard.

4 miles into my drive, the battery charge dropped to 94%

Engine charging the battery

Idling at some intersection

Some 8 miles in, I am at 93% charge

21 miles later I arrive at my destination, 93% charge, on E-SAVE

So when I say it is always a HYBRID it is because even when it reaches <1% charge, there is still charge in the battery, and it does a good job at keeping it there. In fact, if you look at my settings, the E-SAVE is set up to 80% battery. In theory, that is how low it should have discharged the battery and then, and only then, start the efforts of keeping it there. In reality, it is even more aggressive. It didn't save the SOC of the battery at 99% when I pressed the button but did not discharge the battery down to 80% where my settings are. Far from it. For all practical purposes it is always a hybrid.

 

[f1anatic]

Let's work some fuel economy numbers. I fueled up tonight. I drove 207 electric miles and 283 gas miles.

But my last 150+ miles were horrible - mostly highway - mostly gas engine. Don't take my word for it. Take Jeep's.

So we will use some basic numbers. 20 miles driven per full charge and 15 kWh sucked in per full battery charge. If driven locally with the kids to school and the speeds stay around 35-40 mph, and the weather is above freeing, it could be as much as 28 electric miles. If it is cold but not artic, or consistently drive faster than 45 mph, then 20 miles. To me 20 miles is quite easonable.

So... 207 electric miles required 13.8 full battery charges, make that 14 full battery charges cause i like round numbers. 14 x 15 = 210 kWh used to drive those 207 miles. But some of those kW were regenerated through braking and coasting. But how much ?

We will say 30 kWh were regained through braking. That means I charged some 180 kWH. My price per kWh is 0.14 dollars/kWh

So I used 0.14 x 180 = 25.2 dollars.

Tonight I coughed up 62.64 dollars which bought me 18.004 gallons. So...ultimately I paid 88 dollars to drive...494 miles. Which translates to 0.178 dollars per mile.

Over the past 61,670 miles driven with the 2014 Grand Cherokee V6, the average cost per mile was 0.206 dollars/mile.

My previous refill came in at 16 cents per mile. But there are others on the 4xe forum that have driven 700-900 miles per tank of gas (obviously charging in between). This tank was worse. The previous one was better. It is all a matter of how you use the vehicle. But energy costs fluctuate with the price of oil, the farts in the OPEC meeting, the Russians threatening to invade Burkina Faso etc. To drive 494 miles with the older Jeep, which has a lifetime average of 16.65 mpg (holy smokes it dropped since I last posted - used to be 16.66), I would have used 29.65 gallons. Which today, would have cost me 3.479 dollars x 29.65 gallons = $103.15

15 dollars will not save the planet, help me lose weight or buy me happiness. But then again, I decided to buy this car when gas was $5.99 and it is a matter of time before they go up again. By Memorial Day, they will be up a dollar, at least. It is also possible that my electric energy consumption was in fact lower especially since it's been around freezing lately, no snow, and so these calculations are not in my favor. The other way to look at it, this Jeep is a performance upgrade with factory warranty. Which may save you money depending on how you use the car and the price of oil.

 

[tallguy]

Let's work some fuel economy numbers. I fueled up tonight. I drove 207 electric miles and 283 gas miles.

View attachment 247763

But my last 150+ miles were horrible - mostly highway - mostly gas engine. Don't take my word for it. Take Jeep's.

View attachment 247765

So we will use some basic numbers. 20 miles driven per full charge and 15 kWh sucked in per full battery charge. If driven locally with the kids to school and the speeds stay around 35-40 mph, and the weather is above freeing, it could be as much as 28 electric miles. If it is cold but not artic, or consistently drive faster than 45 mph, then 20 miles. To me 20 miles is quite easonable.

So... 207 electric miles required 13.8 full battery charges, make that 14 full battery charges cause i like round numbers. 14 x 15 = 210 kWh used to drive those 207 miles. But some of those kW were regenerated through braking and coasting. But how much ?

View attachment 247766


We will say 30 kWh were regained through braking. That means I charged some 180 kWH. My price per kWh is 0.14 dollars/kWh

View attachment 247767

So I used 0.14 x 180 = 25.2 dollars.

Tonight I coughed up 62.64 dollars which bought me 18.004 gallons. So...ultimately I paid 88 dollars to drive...494 miles. Which translates to 0.178 dollars per mile.

Over the past 61,670 miles driven with the 2014 Grand Cherokee V6, the average cost per mile was 0.206 dollars/mile.

My previous refill came in at 16 cents per mile. But there are others on the 4xe forum that have driven 700-900 miles per tank of gas (obviously charging in between). This tank was worse. The previous one was better. It is all a matter of how you use the vehicle. But energy costs fluctuate with the price of oil, the farts in the OPEC meeting, the Russians threatening to invade Burkina Faso etc. To drive 494 miles with the older Jeep, which has a lifetime average of 16.65 mpg (holy smokes it dropped since I last posted - used to be 16.66), I would have used 29.65 gallons. Which today, would have cost me 3.479 dollars x 29.65 gallons = $103.15

15 dollars will not save the planet, help me lose weight or buy me happiness. But then again, I decided to buy this car when gas was $5.99 and it is a matter of time before they go up again. By Memorial Day, they will be up a dollar, at least. It is also possible that my electric energy consumption was in fact lower especially since it's been around freezing lately, no snow, and so these calculations are not in my favor. The other way to look at it, this Jeep is a performance upgrade with factory warranty. Which may save you money depending on how you use the car and the price of oil.

Wow, great work!
Question: "207 electric miles required 13.8 full battery charges" That means plugging in 14 times and waiting for the batteries to be charged, correct?
How long does that charging take on average?

 

[f1anatic]

Wow, great work!
Question: "207 electric miles required 13.8 full battery charges" That means plugging in 14 times and waiting for the batteries to be charged, correct?
How long does that charging take on average?

So there's more to the story but not in ways that affect the calculations.

On Level 1 (110/120 V outlet) about 13 hours for a full charge. On Level 2 (220/240V to which I plan on upgrading to this spring), under 3 hours for a full charge. The faster you charge, the more you can take advantage of electric driving only. My estimates account for a full battery discharge. So you can take a look at the numbers today - on the way to work I took those photos, on the way back I ended up with 20 % battery left. I drove 21 miles in the morning...I drove a few miles at lunch time at lunch time, hybrid mode, I drove back mostly electric in the evening. I would have gone 25-27 miles all electric tonight. So tonight I am charging from 20% to 100% as displayed on the dashboard. (And remember there's always the hidden charge which is a clever way of ensuring it is always a hybrid and never fully discharged, which is bad for lithium ion battery chemistry).

So did I plug in 14 times? No I probably plugged 36 times, but I never had to charge the full amount. Just like with your cell phone. You don't always charge overnight drained out.

This past week I hit FORM again - Fuel Oil Refresh Mode. Whatever it does to the oil and the gas, there's entire discussions the 4xe boards. We will just say that it is a necessary evil which forces the car to drive on gas for a while to "recondition" the fuel and the motor oil. It happens when you drive a lot on electricity. And depending on how far you drive once FORM mode begins, it may last for several days. Or 20-30 miles of sustained highway speeds. And there's several types of FORM as well.

Here's my lifetime stats - about 30% electric. That accounts for 850 or so miles driven exclusively gas from Washington DC to Chicago. More typical is the fuel tank averages...where I am 40% plus electric. The "more" I drive electric, the more favorable the costs are.

 

[Mogul]

Let's work thru some photos:

License Plate Mounting

View attachment 247750

View attachment 247751

View attachment 247752

Can you provide the source where you picked that up? I just picked up a new/used WK2 Trailhawk from AZ and it doesn't have the bumper drilled. Been looking for different solutions. The plate mounted by drilling into the bumper didn't really bother me that much except that I would have to remove it each time I took off the front fascia to go camping/off road, and the holes were stripping out on my previous TH.

 

[Mogul]

Thanks for sharing the screens and your analysis. Pretty cool tech. So what is the range when you were driving cross country on a tank of gas and not stopping to charge? Just wondering what that looks like when you don't have time or don't want to stop to charge.

 

[tallguy]

So there's more to the story but not in ways that affect the calculations.

On Level 1 (110/120 V outlet) about 13 hours for a full charge. On Level 2 (220/240V to which I plan on upgrading to this spring), under 3 hours for a full charge. The faster you charge, the more you can take advantage of electric driving only. My estimates account for a full battery discharge. So you can take a look at the numbers today - on the way to work I took those photos, on the way back I ended up with 20 % battery left. I drove 21 miles in the morning...I drove a few miles at lunch time at lunch time, hybrid mode, I drove back mostly electric in the evening. I would have gone 25-27 miles all electric tonight. So tonight I am charging from 20% to 100% as displayed on the dashboard. (And remember there's always the hidden charge which is a clever way of ensuring it is always a hybrid and never fully discharged, which is bad for lithium ion battery chemistry).

So did I plug in 14 times? No I probably plugged 36 times, but I never had to charge the full amount. Just like with your cell phone. You don't always charge overnight drained out.

This past week I hit FORM again - Fuel Oil Refresh Mode. Whatever it does to the oil and the gas, there's entire discussions the 4xe boards. We will just say that it is a necessary evil which forces the car to drive on gas for a while to "recondition" the fuel and the motor oil. It happens when you drive a lot on electricity. And depending on how far you drive once FORM mode begins, it may last for several days. Or 20-30 miles of sustained highway speeds. And there's several types of FORM as well.

Here's my lifetime stats - about 30% electric. That accounts for 850 or so miles driven exclusively gas from Washington DC to Chicago. More typical is the fuel tank averages...where I am 40% plus electric. The "more" I drive electric, the more favorable the costs are.

View attachment 247769

OK, I get it now, great explanation, thanks a bunch!

For me this looks like a good system, a complex system. My thinking was always to switch from ICE to fully electric, driving not more than 15K miles/year in metropolitan area, our house can't charge a Tesla quickly due to our house being on a 100 amp service... so a hybrid would make sense for now...
I feel this system and how it is implemented is not for me, I will get another ICE vehicle, probably a 2023/2024 Grand Cherokee Limited (I want the engine cover included...) or a 2024 Mazda CX-70...

 

[hobbie1]

This thread is getting busy, that's a good thing I guess.
What I was referring to was in Hybrid mode, which is what I would be using almost all the time, when cruising at around 50 mph and I floored it, it took at least a full second (or two) for the ICE to turn on and for the car to actually start accelerating. Not a huge deal, I just was surprised. I tried it a few times just to be sure something wasn't wrong. I initially thought in hybrid mode the ICE would always be on. I'd almost prefer that it was, or there was a mode that gave that option. I don't care about fuel economy, I just wanted the most powerful two row Grand Cherokee Summit Reserve I could get, and the Hemi was clearly that. Not some seat of the pants trickery either. I have owned 30+ cars, mostly high performance ones and can tell the difference in vehicle performance. I know it's a quick google search, but I would bet the extra weight of the 4Xe vs Hemi gives the Hemi a better power weight ratio.

Also to the gentleman talking about the McIntosh being better than Volvo Bowers & Wilkins. No way, in no world, is that true. The B&W is known to be one of the best you can get in a vehicle under $150K. I lived with one in an XC90 for three years and it was much better than the McIntosh. I am not trying to bash Jeep here. Last 6 cars I bought were Jeep, Jeep, Mercedes AMG, Volvo, Jeep ,Jeep. I love my GC and the McIntosh, just keeping it realistic here. You may not like the weird center speaker but it is like that for a reason.

Geez -

Maybe I should have been a little clearer on the Volvo and the Infotainment and audio system. never said the McIntosh is better.

The B&W does sound great. We just did not care for the way it looks in the center of the dash. Ofcourse beauty is in the mind of the beholder.

When we were looking the XC 60 the all Google Infotainment platform did not support Apple CarPlay.

The Volvo was too small for us.

There was no option for massage seats which we really like in the Jeep.

We live in Northern CA and there are a limited number of Volvo service centers whereas Jeep dealers are all over the place.

So yes we liked the Volvo - we just liked the Jeep more so. Both seem to be fine vehicles.

As far as performance ..... just for fun

Our 17 350 takes care of our need for speed.... All 8250 of its redline - no supercharges ETC - just raw power from the Voodoo V8.

 

[hobbie1]

Let's work thru some photos:

License Plate Mounting

View attachment 247750

View attachment 247751

View attachment 247752

That looks great - was this a kit? I have a removal front plate for my Shelby - "Yes office I have one - please allow me to attach it." kind of like the scene in American Graffiti - "You can measure it if you like, sir"

 

[hobbie1]

Let's work some fuel economy numbers. I fueled up tonight. I drove 207 electric miles and 283 gas miles.

View attachment 247763

But my last 150+ miles were horrible - mostly highway - mostly gas engine. Don't take my word for it. Take Jeep's.

View attachment 247765

So we will use some basic numbers. 20 miles driven per full charge and 15 kWh sucked in per full battery charge. If driven locally with the kids to school and the speeds stay around 35-40 mph, and the weather is above freeing, it could be as much as 28 electric miles. If it is cold but not artic, or consistently drive faster than 45 mph, then 20 miles. To me 20 miles is quite easonable.

So... 207 electric miles required 13.8 full battery charges, make that 14 full battery charges cause i like round numbers. 14 x 15 = 210 kWh used to drive those 207 miles. But some of those kW were regenerated through braking and coasting. But how much ?

View attachment 247766


We will say 30 kWh were regained through braking. That means I charged some 180 kWH. My price per kWh is 0.14 dollars/kWh

View attachment 247767

So I used 0.14 x 180 = 25.2 dollars.

Tonight I coughed up 62.64 dollars which bought me 18.004 gallons. So...ultimately I paid 88 dollars to drive...494 miles. Which translates to 0.178 dollars per mile.

Over the past 61,670 miles driven with the 2014 Grand Cherokee V6, the average cost per mile was 0.206 dollars/mile.

My previous refill came in at 16 cents per mile. But there are others on the 4xe forum that have driven 700-900 miles per tank of gas (obviously charging in between). This tank was worse. The previous one was better. It is all a matter of how you use the vehicle. But energy costs fluctuate with the price of oil, the farts in the OPEC meeting, the Russians threatening to invade Burkina Faso etc. To drive 494 miles with the older Jeep, which has a lifetime average of 16.65 mpg (holy smokes it dropped since I last posted - used to be 16.66), I would have used 29.65 gallons. Which today, would have cost me 3.479 dollars x 29.65 gallons = $103.15

15 dollars will not save the planet, help me lose weight or buy me happiness. But then again, I decided to buy this car when gas was $5.99 and it is a matter of time before they go up again. By Memorial Day, they will be up a dollar, at least. It is also possible that my electric energy consumption was in fact lower especially since it's been around freezing lately, no snow, and so these calculations are not in my favor. The other way to look at it, this Jeep is a performance upgrade with factory warranty. Which may save you money depending on how you use the car and the price of oil.

Curious - maybe I asked before, what part of the country are you in? I'm in the SF Bay Area and the gas prices are inching up again. Reg is 4.59 to 4.89 and Premium is over 5 again. I live in the PG&E service area and I'm on solar. The off peak fully loaded is currently .34 cents so the break even versus fuel costs is about 4.50 / gallon. In the end you will not save much money.

Why did I end up with the 4Xe? We had a 2022 Overland v6 with tons of issues. These issues seemed to be mostly on the v6's. In the end ours was bought back. One difference noted is that the V6 has a standard duty suspension the V8 and 4Xe's have a heavy duty suspension. Not sure if this matters but I decided to go that route and did not want a V8. I had 2 Hemi GC's and they suck gas. So we had a 2023 4Xe built. So far no issues.

I've driven about 650 miles - city and highway and I charge in between drives as our peak period is 5PM to 9PM Monday through Friday. All other times are off peak. Avg MPG is around 36.

Overall the 4Xe is just a nice vehicle that meets our needs.

 

[f1anatic]

The mounting bracket for the license plate is:

Amazon.com: CNSPEED Aluminum Alloy License Plate Frame Front License Plate Mounting Kit Tow Hook License Plate Mount Superimposed Tow Hook License Plate for Subaru WRX STI(Thread M16*1.5) : Automotive

Buy CNSPEED Aluminum Alloy License Plate Frame Front License Plate Mounting Kit Tow Hook License Plate Mount Superimposed Tow Hook License Plate for Subaru WRX STI(Thread M16*1.5): Frames - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

www.amazon.com

You will need longer Metric 8 screws from Home Depot (Everbilt Machine Screw M8-1.25 x 50 mm Flat Head Phillips Stainless). You can tell from my photos that I did not use that tubular piece which would fit in the regular tow hook for the cars not blessed with them from the factory. I did not want to drill baby drill the front bumper or use zip ties. I dislike the front plate - on my Subaru I used to have one that I cut - looked like a European plate - showed just the numbers. I may resort to neodymium magnets for quick attachment of the plate, and leave that mounting plate there, while the plate itself would in the trunk. Then if I have to park on the street, I could just quickly "throw" it there. Maybe I will cut the plate. I have not yet dialed in on the final solution.

@hobbie1 I live in Chicago IL and lst yea I considered solar. It is doable for me, but I have to cut a freaking tree (and a big one) from the backyard and it was going to be 7 large. As of now we are just trimming it 2/3 for just 3500. The costs have to do with the size of the tree (healthy) and the lack of access to aerial lifts/bucket trucks. The most expensive gas we had was at the end of May 2022 when it was $5.99 at Costco. But we regularly have some of the most expensive gas in the country outside Hawaii and California.

@Mogul I stopped for gas once in Dayton Ohio. On the highway, fuel economy is comparable to the V6. Maybe more maybe less depending on how fast you drive but very similar. But the fuel tank is only 19 gallons so you will have to fuel up more frequently. Compared to the WK2, the highway range is less - same fuel economy but the WK2 has essentially a 25 gallon tank (24.6 or 24.7 or 24.9 gallon something like that). So if you do a lot of highway driving, this is not the car for you...unless you buy it for the acceleration/power.

 

[jeepinAl]

Excellent write-up f1anatic, that answered many of my questions on the day-to-day scenarios of a 4Xe.

Unfortunately, like hobbie1, my lowest kWh from SoCal Edison ( even on the lowest E-plan) is $ .24 ( peak now at $ .62...lordy) so I wouldn't be buying one to save money...but for fun...possibly. If my '18WK2 can't last until the I-6 comes out, then the 4Xe looks good.
Al

 

[Steve g]

That is true.

Even if you are planning on keeping the vehicle for more than 3 years, leasing will get you the best deal right now - especially on the MY22 4xe. Lease it now and once the lease is over, you can either decide to buy it or return it - based on residual, reliability and how much/little you enjoyed the vehicle. No risk at all.

The MF offered through leasing is lower than any interest rate you can get on a loan today (see the 2.856% below). Combine that with the fact that the $7,500 gets applied immediately instead of a tax refund a year from now and you have a VERY competitive offer.

View attachment 247707

Does anyone actually qualify for the $7,500 tax credit ?

 

[GCOverland]

Does anyone actually qualify for the $7,500 tax credit ?

On a lease, EVERYBODY qualifies (this month)* if the MSRP of the 4xe is below $80,000 (sticker below $81,795). Got the credit in November on the Trailhawk AND this month again on the Summit Reserve for a total of $15,000.

*This might change once the battery sourcing restrictions apply a few months from now.

 

[f1anatic]

Let me continue the indoctrination re-education brain-washing persuasion of the forum.

This is what I mean by <1% battery.
Even then, the contribution of the electric motor especially during acceleration continues.
You will see on the left side two small icons one green (battery) and one blue (engine).
The green and blue bars show the contribution to propulsion by energy source.

So today this is what the outcome looks like. Garage to garage some 28-29 miles were covered and the car was driven 23-24 of those miles on battery. It involved kiddie duties, traveling on roads with up to 45 miles per hour speed limit. It was also colder and it snowed. On a warmer day, with slower speeds, the whole distance could have been covered on electricity - maybe. So maybe 20 miles per full battery charge is a 10-15% underestimate which makes the calculations above perhaps too unfavorable.