Greetings, Part 2


Headunit:

I had the 430 without navi as part of my factory system. I choose to go with the Pioneer SPH-DA210 AppRadio 3 for now. The current crop of headunits did not meet my needs. I wanted to have my navigation thru the smartphone apps. Right now, I am sticking with IGO Primo (the new SYGIC for IOS is still not appradio compliant, but I run in HDMI mode). When an update occurs, I get an updated in the software with new functions, corrected functions and of course map updates. I could have used an iPad or another tablet; however, I do not want to lug around that particular device.

For the wire harness, my installer went with PAC C2R-CHY4 and the SWI-RC, otherwise you can use the PAC all in one RP4-CH11. Today, you have IDatalink, Metraonline, and Cruz just to name a few harnesses that will work the 2011-2013 JGC. The 2014+ is currently in development for the 8.4 systems. The 8.4 has the Uconnect built into the headunit and that is current hold up on how to deal with it.

I still I cannot understand why in this day in age, the aftermarket manufactures cannot implement navi software changes into the headunits. Garmin has a platform and so does IGO Primo to allow this to take place. BTW, in some of the Chevy’s headunits, the do use a smartphone technology integrated into the navigation using the BringGO USA app. LandRover gives you the option to use your smartphone for navigation via the app SYGIC. Shortly, will finally see OEM integration with the smartphone with both platforms from Apple’s CarPlay and Andriod.

In terms of headunits today, I still think Kenwood Excelon line is the way to go, followed by Alpine. From what I have read about Pioneer’s NEX units, some them are still a little buggy at the moment as with any first generation product.

As I said previously, I am using the AppRadio 3 for now until a better solution comes out and a better audio quality. The 3rd generation of the AppRadio does have a pretty good sound quality to it. So for now, the headunit for all intensive purposes is still my missing item for a better sound quality system. I am going wait until the 2015 HU models are out and see from there. Otherwise, I might do a iPad.

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Car/AppRadio/AppRadio+3+(SPH-DA210)

The AppRadio 3

see part 3 next

 

Greetings, Part 3


Digital Sound Processing (“DSP”):

This is the key to a SQ surround sound system.

As many of us who have the Alpine Premium system, here at JeepGarage.org there is a split between who loves it and who hates it. Remember, everybody perceives sound, music and vocals different from the next person. Therefore, I obviously fall into the category of hating the OEM system. From my days of home theater audio, I always like the way JBL’s Logic 7 surround sound matrix for music sounded. I have listen to Logic 7 in my friends MB and got used to proper OEM surround system should sound. My other requirement besides surround sound was to have all the speakers run on a electronic (active) crossover.

For the DSP I am using the JBL MS-8 for the Logic 7 surround sound and the electronic crossover. The MS-8 automatically calibrates everything when instructed after you input the settings and crossover points. You might have to try a few times to get hit the right mark. They also give you a general overall 31 band graphic Eq to help fine tune. There are no provisions to tune individual channels at all. In addition, it cannot process a full 7.1 active system. The use of a passive crossover is needed for the front door or in the rear. At as standalone DSP unit, I think it is very good.

As I motioned before, the MS-8 has 2 negative features in the tuning and xover. To solve this, I added a 2nd DSP unit, the Rockford Fosgate 3.sixty.3. I now have individual control for each channel in terms of equalizing with a graphic or parametric eq and further time delay adjustments. Also, I have the use of 4 different filter types in the electronic crossover. There are other DSP’s out there which is better to use than the 3.sixty.3, but for my budget it works. It is better to have a faster processor; however, you will be paying over $900.00 and over 1k. IMO, the Audision Bit One and the 3.sixty.3 are the same, except the 3.sixty.3 is cheaper.

From the output stage of the MS-8 into the input stage of the 3.sixty.3

MS-8 Output Channels 1 & 2: Is a full range signal for the front door L6SE midbass/midrange driver & L1 Pro R2 Tweeter. Once in the 3.sixty.3, it is split into separate L & R channels for each driver.

MS-8 Output Channels 3 & 4: Is a high frequency signal for the rear door L3V2 wide band full range driver xover at 300hz at a 24db slope going directly into the JL Audio 600/6 amp. I am fully satisfied how the MS-8 configured those settings. No other eq or anything needs to be done.

MS-8 Output Channels 5 & 6: Is a full range signal for the rear pillar L3SE wide band full range driver.

MS-8 Output Channel 7: Is a full range signal for the center L3SE driver

MS-8 Output Channel 8: Is a low frequency signal for the Jl Audio Stealthbox xover at 80hz at a 24db slope. Inside the 3.sixty.3 I then have it setup in the crossover section as band-pass from 20 – 80 hz. This way I found the signal to better than the pass-thru. If I applied it as low frequency crossover in the 3.sixty.3, it would conflict with MS-8 output and does sound bad.

All interfacing with the 3.sixty.3 is done via a PC and the provided software. It is important to get the latest release from Rockford prior to starting the configuration process. On the website is a link to a video presentation on YouTube how to use the software.

From the Output stage of the RF 3.sixty.3 to the Amps:

Channels 1 & 2: The front door L6SE midbass/midrange driver xover using a band-pass Linkwitz filter from 80-6000 hz at a 24db slope into the Pioneer 4 Channel amp. I had the 3.sixty.3 invert the signal (setting) and the effect gave it more dynamics.

Channels 3 & 4: The front door L1 Pro R2 tweeter xover using a high pass Butterworth filter from 5200 Hz at a12db slope into the Pioneer 4 Channel amp.

Channels 5 & 6: The rear pillar L3SE xover using a band-pass Butterworth filter from 300-15,000 hz at 36db slope into the JL Audio 600/6 amp

Channel 7: The front door L6SE xover using a band-pass Linkwitz filter from 450-10,000 Hz at 24db slope into the JL Audio 600/6 amp.

Channel 8: The subwoofer xover using a band-pass Linkwitz filter from 20-80 Hz at 24db slope into the Pioneer mono amp.

With HAT speakers, very little eq had to be used for the rear, just front and the center to get to my sweet spot. After, I did the initial tuning after the speakers broke-in which took about 20+ hours of play. I have play with tuning now and then to improve it.

MS-8 | Car Audio DSP, Powered Digital Sound Processor | JBL US

3SIXTY Digital Processors - 3SIXTY.3 - Rockford Fosgate®

The DSP's

see part 4 next

 

Greetings, Part 4


The Install:

To begin with, this was not a do it yourself install by me, the colleague that I mentioned prior in the speakers section was the one who did the install for me. Exotic Auto Boutique located in Brooklyn, New York at 156 Third Avenue (www.exoticautoboutique.com”), 718.625.4742. They also have a facebook page.https://www.facebook.com/EAB156 I have known the owner, Frank R, for over 25 years now. He played the devils advocate for me on the final design build. I left all the install portion to him and his crew to do my dirty work. I am to busy, to old and do not want to tool up for car audio.

Equipment Location:

I did not want to use the area under the front seats for one simple reason; I did not want any possible water making its way to the equipment, especially salt during the winter months. With all of my equipment, under the rear seat was not a good choice either. Not enough height clearance. And the spare tire cargo area was a no go for me. The 2 DSP Units and the 3 Amps were install on the back of rear seat. The DSP are on the right fold-down side, while the amps are located on the left fold-down side. They are covered by a matching top custom built for me by Exotic. The bottom allows air in and the top lets the heat out.

The cargo area, the spare tire and all the panels were removed from the back area in order to run the all the cabling to the equipment. That big silver tube is not a Bazooka Bass unit, but the nitrogen supply tank for the Quadra Lift (QL) suspension.

Power:

The AppRadio 3 headunit and wire harness power comes from the OEM exiting connections. The rest of the gear is powered off the JGC battery. That connection is from the battery booster points under the hood. This way, the battery can be replaced or if a technician has to work on something, they have easy access. At the booster points, I have a relay switch that allows to shut off the power connection to the equipment. Because I am running 3 amps, they used #0ga power cable directly to a secondary battery, Stinger SPP 680, dedicated to maintain the load and no drop outs in voltage even through I am using Class D power amps. In addition, I have a surge protection connect to the Stinger, PAC 200 amp. This is more effective than using capacitors.

Pac-Audio.com Product Details | iPod Integration for your car and More by Pac-Audio - Connecting you to the future

Stinger Electronics | Product Details

The front relay and power connections for the AMPS and DSPS

The battery and the PAC 200 with the rear relay

Audio Interconnects and Speaker Wires:

For the interconnects, we used the JL Audio ECS premium audio cables. The subwoofer speaker cable is 12-gauge wire. For the rest of the speaker wires, we taped into the OEM wiring. The OEM wiring has to be extremely good. This is the only thing that was done right in the factory system.


Speaker Installation:

The JL Audio Stealthbox went in as predicated, easy. The HAT L3SE center speaker dropped into place without any problems. For HAT L6SE midbass/midrange speaker a MDF mounting ring was made and fasten onto the dynaomat pad that lined the area from 6x9 enclosure. The same procedure was used for the rear door for the HAT L3V2 speaker. The tweeter had to be modify by trimming the ring in order to get into the OEM enclosure. We put a black speaker cloth as the finishing component. The rear pillar was wedge in with the dynaomat around the metal part of the speaker. Some good old reliable hot glue keeps in place.


Front Tweeter

Rear Pillar

The cover for the equipment

And this, my fellow jeepgarage.org members is my madness.

Best for now.

 

But how does it sound? Awesome writeup!

Btw, i know everyone perceives sound different. But we should all try to achieve a flat response and let the producers decide how we should hear a track.

 

Wow, awesome post(s) and amazing install!

 

Greetings,

Even the IOS Masters approved. :lol:

Best for now.

 

Awesome write up with pics not so simple system but well thought out very good


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Greetings,

I beg to differ. It was a simple system. I also gave the install team the wiring map to hook this up and they did the rest.

In reality, most shops would not even think about this design or tell you it would never work. Since I have many years in audio in different areas, this is result of my experience. The use of 2 DSP units was mostly from my experience in the pro world.

Thank you for your reply and enjoy your JGC.

Best for now.

 

Awesome write up, my man. You definitely take the Oscar for Best JC Audio System. I would absolutely love to hear it.

I'm keen to do something similar but not *that* keen. Looks like Hard work and perseverance paid off.

 

Yeah -- real simple, and >$10K later....If it were simple, why was their an "install team"?

Great choice in gear. I bet it sounds great. I wouldn't say upgrading the Alpine system is "simple" for anyone. Simple = swapping some coaxials in, + sub + amp, and "go". That's not possible here.

 

Yeah -- real simple, and >$10K later....If it were simple, why was their an "install team"?

Greetings,

As I said in the writeup, I did not what to be bothered by car install and I do not have the time work on it even if I wanted to.

The hard part was saving up for this and getting the gear over a course of 2 plus years.

Best for now.

 

do you have a wiring diagram of how things come out of the head unit? I'm wondering how wires are sent to all 19 speakers of the HK system. 19 channels, or 7.1 channels then split by cross overs at each location. Wondering if doing a wireline to 5VA to amp to better speakers would be good. I could through in a parametric EQ to flatten things out and control the sub better. As much as I would love to do a full system overhaul like you did, I'd like to keep my head unit from the Summit and just change the speakers out while gaining fine control over the EQ. Right now I'm at 0/9/9 and am happy with it with SD/USB/Pandora App. SXM still sounds like ass and HD Radio somehow has added sibilance to make it sound more "HD" so I need to turn down the treble to 5 when I'm on HDRadio.

 

Greetings,

I have posted the reply over at the HK thread for others to share. I hope you do not mind.


http://www.jeepgarage.org/f155/from...f155/from-the-horses-mouth-on-the-harman-kardon-system-53508-9.html#post1088334

Best for now.

 

Nice setup and a great writeup. I bet it sounds excellent, but I would not consider it simple especially if there is a changeout of the HU. Installation behind the seats takes precious cargo space and takes away the fold-down utility.

I would be perfectly happy with HK/Summit quality sound in my Overland.

 

Greetings,

Thanx.

I considered the impact on the fold-down utility and finally went for it. It does limit me a little. The cover is constructed very well and I have put my portable table saw on it with no problem. This was part of my sacrifice for achieving my goal. I have not tried a heavy miter saw on it yet. I did wish the JGC had more for me to use.

The bottom line in terms of simplicity, I am used to dealing with a large amount of audio equipment and the various methods of connecting them up. In the future, more amps will have built-in DSP units which allow for far less equipment. However, the price will be high for a while.

There are many ways one can improve the sound in Alpine system. Their are a couple of great threads here on how they did it. Being an audiophile, I just went all out.

Best for now.

 

1stJeepGC, your system looks awesome. It's the best designed system I've seen in all the hunting I've done on replacing the WK2 Alpine system. I also think you give excellent advice in other audio threads.

Based on your advice and my research, I believe HATs are definitely the best choice for speakers. I would like to replace some of the Alpine speakers in my Altitude to start with and see how it goes from there. Down the road I may replace the amp/dsp.

I have a couple of questions. Do you see any issues with going a little higher is the lineup, as in Unity or Clarus components for the front doors and tweeters and still running off the Alpine amp? It's not that big a jump in price from the Imagine speakers I was considering. The Unity/Clarus lines have slightly smaller tweeters which I think would be almost a perfect fit in the existing cutouts. I also don't mind investing in slightly higher end for the long term.

Would a HAT L32V 3.7 work as replacement for the centre speaker and do you think either of the two HAT 8" subs would work in the Alpine enclosure? I've purchased some Dynamat which I'm planning on using on the enclosure.

That would be my Stage 1. Appreciate any advice you can provide.

 

Greetings,

It is just about 2 years now that I had installed the HAT's and I fully happy with my decision. The main reason that I finally settled on the HAT was the tweeter, L1 Pro R2. As I have stated many times here, the JGC for an SQ surround system only needs one (1) pair of tweeter. This tweeter has great imaging and in particular, the off-axis is greatly improved.

Now, in regard to your situation, the Stage 4 Clarus, IMHO, to get the full potential will require amplification. With out application, the tweeter should be fine, but the mid bass punch will be lacking. It very well be that in your taste, the mid bass is good enough for you until you decide to go for the next stage.
The Unity is also the same thing. It comes back to the mid bass punch. In this case I do believe that the OE amp should have an easy time with this one.

As you go up the line with HAT with the mid bass drivers, the faster the mid bass attack happens. So the key here is determine which driver meets your music genres. How loud you want to play it with out losing the sound quality. Remember these drivers are not for the SPL pounding.

On the to the center channel speaker, the L3V2 is a good match to either one of the Stage 3 or 4 lines. I would wait until you upgrade the DSP/AMP first. As you have read from my other posts also, the key to the surround is taming the L/C/R which the OE system does allow you to do. If you go for it now, it is no doubt an improvement over the junk that is it now.

Based up on your proposed setup, in your next stage, I have been recommending to go with DSP/Amp combos. Look into the Helix P - 6. This an excellent unit to configure the fronts and subs while integrating into the factory DSP to maintain the surround sound. This is the fine tuning that I always talk about. Unless you can get a MS-8 on e-bay really cheap and do the configuration like I did. That is a budget issue.

Helix P SIX DSP 6-channel car amplifier with digital signal processing — 120 watts RMS x 6 at Crutchfield.com

I am most likely to install this some time next year.


Ok, now the sub question. When I looked at the factory enclosure when it was finally out, I am still not convinced that it can get now to the low frequencies. Now, many here have done various improvements and they are happy with it. Some have done the mods and later brought the Stealthbox. The 8 inch HAT will be looking for power. To me, a sub should not sound like a mid bass speaker. It should get down low and just touch the beginning part of the mid bass frequencies. I would wait until you get the money to this stage correctly.

Best for now.

 

1stJeepGC, Thanks for the great advice. I will follow your advice and not move too quickly on replacing some of the speakers, like the sub, without better amps.

I am intrigued by your comments on the tweeters you went with, the L1 Pro R2. Would they be a consideration for a starting point on a staged upgrade. I'm just wondering how much better they are than the other lines and would they work OK in the Alpine system if I was to buy just those to start. That might be most of my Stage 1 budget, but the Alpine tweeters to my ears are probably the weakest link.

 

I am intrigued by your comments on the tweeters you went with, the L1 Pro R2. Would they be a consideration for a starting point on a staged upgrade.

Greetings,

That is a very good question.

When I ran all the HAT's off the factory DSP/AMP and the new Pioneer HU, you could hear the difference which was night and day. With me, it did not sound right because of the way it was setup via the factory system and the way I love to here my music (BTW, which is many different types).

Once you get them, you are committed to get the center channel next which will be the L3SE. This will match the timbre to the tweeter. The upper mid range frequencies will blend in perfectly. I do not know if the sell single of this, unless you can get a dealer to get for you.

It is very possible at this point you could get them into your budget. I would give 12 Electronics a call and find out about getting a single L3SE. If you play thru good sources and not SirusXM, it might good enough for you to get by. Remember you and I hear sound differently. Your concept of starting with tweeters is right. The question is could you hold out to the next stage.

Hybrid Audio Legatia SE Speaker Systems

With that being said, the next phase will be the 6.5 drivers. You could continue with the HAT's for this one. Or, you get another raw driver from another manufacture. I was pleasantly surprised once the L6SE broke in, the amount of air it pushes. A high quality DSP unit will able to adjust crossover points and filters to achieve the running. In any event, you are now committed to get the aftermarket DSP and amplification. As you know, wave good bye to the green stuff at this point.

On the other hand for next phase could very will be a new headunit. If the Maestro iDatalink is out working by then, I would go for a Kenwood Headunit. Then you system will really start to come a live. Their is a thread here that goes talks about the Maestro or call them and get an update. They are extremely friendly to talk to.


My philosophy is the front stage of a surround sound system has to be done correctly in order to appreciate it. It is about the balance and separation of the channels to create the wall of sound. If done incorrectly, it will sound like 3 mono channels.

The off-axis results of the L1 Pro R2, IMHO is worth it. The tweeter takes advantage of the front windshield and windows for the sound effect. So, think about this carefully before you pull the trigger.

Best for now.

 

Thanks for the further insight. I think the L1 Pro R2 tweeters will be a good investment to start and I agree I should pull the trigger on the L3SE at the same time.

Fortunately, we have a HAT dealer here in Canada that lists exactly the same prices as 12 Electronics in Canadian funds with free shipping. I'll phone them and see if they can sell a single L3SE.

FYI, I do play through a good source, a 6th Generation iPod Touch, loaded with mostly HQ albums ripped from CD to Apple Lossless or purchased from iTunes. Like you, it's many different types of music.

I'll let you know my impressions when I get the stuff and get in in. I'm sure it will sound great.

 

Greetings,

You want to get the tip of the tweeter, which is the cone right by the edge of the fabric. Just leave enough space so that is 1/8 or a 1/4 if you do not want to rim that much off. The dynomat went on the metal rim after we shaved to eliminate any openings and prevent metal vibrations. So you have plenty of metal to work with before you hit the fabric edge. :thumbsup:

If you notice on the picture above of the L1 Pro R2, the rim of the tweeter has shaving marks. We got to the 1/8 mark. The small set back will not interfere with the overall output of sound.

As for the caps on the Alpine tweeter, my 2011 did not have them. The cap is a bass blocker. If you do not get them now, when you reach the phase for the amplification, then I recommend it as safety precaution against spikes during the initial setup.

Best for now.

 

1stJeepGC, I'm still having a hard time getting my head around having to trim back the tweeter rims myself for a couple of reasons. I'm concerned about warranty if I ever needed to return one and I'd like to keep them in original shape in case I ever wanted to move them to another vehicle. I'm actually still working on trying to get them here in Canada.

Is there a plan B. If I was to take a hard rubber washer, as in the attached picture, and cut it to the exact dimensions and sandwich it between the OEM enclosure and the tweeter rim would that solve the issue. I could even seal the washer to the enclosure. It's about 4mm thick. At least there would be something solid behind the entire tweeter rim. According to the HAT mechanical drawing, it's not much more than 1/4 inch wide.

Plan C would be to move down the line to Clarus or Unity components. The smaller tweeter bodies look like they would be an easier fit. Only issue there is you've really sold me on the L1 Pro R2 tweeters being better than anything else in the HAT lineup, even with just the stock Alpine amp. It could be another year or two before I replace the Alpine system completely, if ever.

Your best recommendation will be appreciated.

 

What a GREAT write-up...thank you! I have a 14' with the 19-speaker system...have you heard a WK2 with that system? Main reason I ask is the system is great, but I feel like it is missing something...overall, for a stock system I am satisfied...just wondering if you have any recommendations that are not a complete system overhaul, but maybe some speaker upgrades? Can I upgrade the amp and some speakers without doing all 19? Any thoughts are greatly encouraged as you clearly know your audio!!

 

Greetings,

Thank you.

Yes, I have heard the HK briefly and just a few times. Their is a nice thread here if you did not come across it already with discussions on the pros and cons. As of this date it is about 11 pages:

http://www.jeepgarage.org/f155/from-the-horses-mouth-on-the-harman-kardon-system-53508.html

The problem with any Premium Sound System from FCA, IMHO, they cut back on achieving the true performance capabilities. Is this a money issue, who knows. All their systems are geared for the general public. Plus the fact they do not give enough access to tuning.

In any event, the main 2 issues I have with the system is the placement of mid range drives which are coaxial and the rear door tweeter. The JGC really work great with only 1 pair of tweeters for the SQ surround sound setup. Who needs a tweeter right in back of your ear. The midrange driver is simple put in the wrong place and defeats the purpose. It right my your shoulder. These issues result offsetting the staging sequences.

Another issue overlooked is the quality of the headunit. Even through it is designed by Harman, it is not a mid or high unit. The middle range aftermarket HU are far better than the stock. And this applies to both the Alpine and HK. You are better off not even getting SirusXM and paying for the premium apps such as Spotify, Aupeo and etc. At least this way you get better sound quality from source.

As for recommendations for speaker upgrades, I would disconnect the rear door tweeter and front door mids first. If you feel if the rear door mids need to go, then eliminated them. You can follow the upgrade that member DAVID360 is performing and take in phases to fix the critical front stage. If the 10 inch sub goes down low enough for you, then that is ok. Other than that, I can not see any other thing to do unless you go for complete upgrade. It is matter of how much musical quality to you want to stride for.

Best for now.

 

Greetings,

Go for plan B.

Plan D: continue with plan B and if want to cut the pillar enclosure back and try to see if you can retro fit the included grill. If you are leasing, then do not, otherwise go for it.

Best for now.

 

Greetings again 1stJeepGC.

I would appreciate a little of your expert advice on the Alpine system, but first an update on where I am at:

After further research on some of my issues with the Alpine and after some system analysis by a high-end car audio shop, I have decided that a speaker-only upgrade without fixing other issues would not work for me.

My biggest issues are with how the front stage is crossed-over and mixed. In particular I find the center channel too dominant. A lot of music I listen to on headphones that has great stereo separation can sound almost mono and scrambled in the jeep. I have been fading to the back quite a bit to minimize the centre channel, but always wondered why I had the sensation that a lot of midrange was missing. I realize now that is because the front woofers are crossed over quite low (300Hz). The best speakers in the world won't bring the excluded midrange back to those doors without fixing the system.

Also the shop indicated there is only about 25 to 27 watts into a 2 ohm load on those channels, so better quality 4 ohm speakers might only see 12 to 15 watts.

Realizing that the Alpine cannot be replaced without loosing factory functionality due to the CAN-bus control, we have come up with the following solution. We are going to do this with just the Alpine speakers for now. Stage 2 will be adding better speakers down the road.

We are going to use the speaker outs from the Alpine and run them into an Audison AP 8.9 bit combination DSP/amp. Together with a AP 1 D amp for the sub and a Audison SPM4 channel mixer for summing the front doors, this will give us enough inputs and outputs to give each speaker in the system, except for the two D pillars, a stand alone DSP/amp channel. The dual channel sub will be wired in series and will be getting over 300 watts into 4 ohms. Each of the other speakers will be getting about triple what they currently get into 2 ohms. The D pillar speakers we will leave on the Alpine.

Between the channel summing and DSP deequalization we should get the full signal we need to recrossover the front doors. The other channels are close enough that just some DSP work should suffice. The shop is suggesting we do some time alignment, in particular, aligning the sub with the front door woofers. We also intend to really downplay the centre channel.

I'm curious as to how the Alpine speakers will sound in this setup, although the intention is to build a solid platform for better speakers down the road.

Now for the questions. Do you have any ideas on how the Alpine Euphony creates the surround sound environment? In particular, do you know if they use time delays. The shop is guessing they must have some sort of steering logic, but they are not able to test for time delays.

I like having surround sound on, because it does help bring some life to the current system, but I'm wondering if there will be any issues with what we are planning.

I consider you a surround sound expert, having designed your own system from the ground up, so any insights you have on the Alpine would be appreciated, or let me know if you see any issues with what we have planned.

 

Greetings again 1stJeepGC.


Now for the questions. Do you have any ideas on how the Alpine Euphony creates the surround sound environment? In particular, do you know if they use time delays. The shop is guessing they must have some sort of steering logic, but they are not able to test for time delays.

I like having surround sound on, because it does help bring some life to the current system, but I'm wondering if there will be any issues with what we are planning.

I consider you a surround sound expert, having designed your own system from the ground up, so any insights you have on the Alpine would be appreciated, or let me know if you see any issues with what we have planned.

Greetings,

Earphony does use steering logic & time delays that are preset.



Regards to the center channel speaker, unforturanly, with the preset systems the center channel is way overloaded with information. Infact, my MS-8 does the something. I was able to adjust to my liking by doing several calibrations during the setup stage and my covering the front speakers a little to fact it out. The MS-8 has the superior steering logic to Alpine's H800 aftermarket unit. However, the H800 allows you to adjust center channel width similar to a HT theater. Additionally, the H800 only supports 5.1.

Back to your setup:

Make sure that the Audison 8.9 has enough power later on for your speaker upgrade. The front speakers generally like more power. Check out going with the AP 4.9 setup (keep the gains down with factory speakers until you switch speakers). IMHO, I would put the rear pillars on instead of the rear door and have the rear door on the other dsp. It more important to control the that stage in relationship to the front stage. By using the Audison DSP as the shop is suggesting is the right way and only way to go. Make use of the band-pass crossovers filters as I did. I would recommend to stick to the Butterworth filter types at first to make sure you not getting any cancellation between the factory dsp and the new dsp's.

Keep us updated.

Best for now.

 

Greetings,

Anytime.


The Butterworth is easier to adapter too when you have signals coming out of other sources. It is a smoother transition. In your case play with that first and then go to other others. Tweeters in your setup might sound better going with the Butterworth and those you can pick and play once the speakers break in.

Go with the Hertz speakers until you hear some others.

Keep us updated.

Best for now.

 

Greetings,

Keep us updated.

Best for now.

It sounds awesome. That’s what I think of the the new Audison setup running on the Alpine system, even with just the Alpine speakers. It is noticeably cleaner and more distortion free.

There is also a little more sound coming from the tweeters, even though they are crossed over at about the same frequency as they were on the Alpine. I guess with the de-EQ and the Butterworth crossovers, the Audison DSP does a better job of reproducing those higher frequencies.

For my ears, it’s great having the front stage midrange frequencies now coming from the doors rather than just the centre speaker. I have the centre speaker turned down very low and I do not miss it. Personally, I much prefer the more true-to-original stereo separation.

I still have surround sound turned on, as I like how it broadens the sound from the back stage. We put the back door woofers on the Audison rather than the D-Pillars because I like lots of base and they help in that regard. The D-Pillars are still in the mix, but they are playing on the Alpine amp.

Now that I can hear the sub with the added power, to me it is the weakest speaker in the system. It’s very boomy, even with the exclosure dynamatted. It will be the first speaker to change.

I’m not trying to suggest that the other Alpine speakers are great. I realize that higher end speakers will be much tighter and fuller. I do think this approach with adding new DSP and amps first has shown that if you want a higher SQ system, replacing OEM speakers is only half the battle at most. This approach has proven to me that quality aftermarket DSP and amp systems are dramatically superior to OEM.

I am not disputing the fact that members on the forum have reported great success with speaker only upgrades. If they are OK with how the Alpine amp produces sound that may be all they ever need to do, as 1stJeepGC has stated before. What I would suggest to members who have put in aftermarket speakers and have been unhappy with the results, it may be more the amp and the inability to make any adjustments to suit those speakers that is at fault.

With this setup there is no loss of any factory functionality. Nothing has been removed or replaced. My only concern was thinking that turning down the centre channel would reduce Nav voice and bluetooth phone call volume. It doesn’t. They are now coming clearly from the front doors, since that is where the mid range frequencies are now coming from.

The beauty of this Audison DSP is how customizable every single speaker channel is. I sat with one of the techs at the shop for about a half hour fine tuning the system, in particluar the door woofer sound. I now have the software loaded on a laptop and through USB I can go in and make tweaks myself. It’s pretty cool when you can slide points around on a full parametric EQ for each speaker pair and hear the result in real time. And there is now no need to use the 3-band EQ or fader in the head unit. Those are set flat.

I’ve attached a few snapshots: the Audison summing device for the front doors connected to the Alpine Amp, the Audison combo DSP amps in the compartment under the drivers seat, and the location we used for the subwoofer volume controller. It’s that black LC-1 dial just to the left of the audio system inputs.

 

Greetings,

Glad you are happy.

I bet you can not wait to change out the speakers.

Keep us updated.

Best for now.

 

Yes, the intention was to build a solid SQ platform for good speakers.

Since I can't get the HAT Legatia here in Canada, I'm still leaning towards the Hertz Mille Legend. They have Hertz, Audison, Focal and higher-end Pioneer speakers in the boards at the shop I am working with. To my ears, I like the smooth sound of the Legend tweeters (ML 280.3) the best. I've heard Morels are good, but they don't have any mounted in boards at the moment. Plus the Morel Elate are about twice the price of the Hertz Mille.

Are there any other speaker lines you would recommend I look at?

 

New(er) to the forum, but wow. This entire thread is wonderful, so thank you! I am looking to upgrade my 730n to the 8100NEX (primarily for CarPlay and the capacitive screen responsiveness) but I had many questions prior to finding this. Such as, would the backup camera correctly work and display the lines, would the dash need to get mangled upon installation, etc.? Your photo gallery answered that right up.

Thanks again!

 

Greetings and welcome,

Glad to be of service.

Best for now.

 

Amazing system 1stJeepGC! I just read most of this thread. I thought my system was starting to be a little overboard but now you've got me feeling OK about it lol...

I would LOVE to hear your setup.

Hopefully I'll get my speaker problem sorted out tomorrow!

Cheers :thumbsup:

 

Greetings, Part 1

This was a simple SOUND QUALITY (“SQ”) system to engineer by myself for my complete replacement of the factory Alpine Premium surround system. The hardest part was saving up. Comprises had to take place or some stuff it would have driven me way over the top. Thus, the 2 ½ year wait from the time I purchase the JGC. The install was done during late September into early October of 2013. I am still paying off the sound system. So, no questions regarding how much did this put me into the hole ($,$$$.$$). But, yes, it is well worth it. Would I do it again? Oh Yes.

Just to confirm, is the alpine setup that was in your 2011, the same that is in the current 2016 / 2017 units that are not the HK upgrade? I know the uConnect system is newer, but over the same general setup as far as speakers and processing unit? I'm looking at the 2017 Trailhawk and want to upgrade the audio, willing to spend around $2k - $3k to do so, and want to go stealth box as you did but with solid tweeters and midbass speakers as well to complete the sound stage.

 

Greetings,

Yes, that was the factory OE Alpine system with Uconnect 430 and the 9 speakers plus the 8 inch sub. The HK upgrade was not out in the 1st year of the WK2. As far as I know, the newer Alpine system are still the same with some minor adjustments. Those who have reported here indicated that it still is the same sound wise.

With your planned overall, you should be able to accomplish it with your plan budget. Of course the Stealthbox and associated amp will eat most of that budget. Due keep in mind that once you play with the front stage, the center channel can not be adjusted since it is present in the factory DSP/AMP.

Take your time and research.

Best for now.

 

I want to thank you for all of your great information. I have spent the past month on this forum everyday soaking up information for my new vehicle I am ordering this week. Tinting the windows will be the very first item on the list the next day and upgrading the audio will be the next thing I do within the week I pick it up. I enjoy a solid sounding system and appreciate a quality SQ setup.


I have researched so many threads and forums for speakers, and I like your choices very much. I wanted to ask you since it has been 3 years since you built out your system, and knowing how your setup sounds after this time, if you were to build it out again would you choose the same speakers and amps or not and why or why not?


I know you chose to upgrade the head unit and as much as I would love to have Android Auto I am looking to keep the factory 8.4 with Nav head unit so that I still have control of the many vehicle settings through the uConnect. I wish it wasn't that way but when going aftermarket for the head unit you loose all those controls. In keeping with the factory head unit would it be recommended to utilize a sound processor such as you did with the JBL MS-8 to maximize sound quality from the HAT speakers?

 

Greetings,

After thinking about your question since it was first time anybody asked me if I would do it over again the same way, it still a very good question.

The most important speaker that I can not stress enough about for a surround sound sound quality mobile audio system is the tweeter. In our situation we need only a single pair for the tweeter in the vehicle. A ribbon tweeter is out of the question with is axis problems as of now. The beryllium tweeter is another fine option. But the ring radiator tweeter from HAT and it's price point was the perfect solution for me. The L1 Pro R2 tweeter controls off axis response better than previous tweeters of this type for mobile audio. Even Polk gave up on it years ago.

Equally important speaker was the L3SE from HAT that is my center and rear pillar. This was a total surprise in the detail of the sound. This is a wide band full range speaker that can serve many different purposes. As I mentioned in my writeup, the proper crossover setting is the key. My recommendation is to setup as band-pass type if the aftermarket DSP has that function. HAT drivers are the same as home audio hi-end drivers.

So the answer to the speakers is, YES, I would use HAT again.

As for the amps, Pioneer does not make that line any longer and it is a shame. The amps are incredible. The JL Audio amps would be the replacement. However, HAT amps are coming to the market and my feeling is that are going to a major impact on the market. Just as Focal speakers and amps are. Personally, I am fine with Class D amps.

The big question for amps today is whether to go with a combo unit consisting of DSP/AMP. This has steadily been available from manufactures at all different price points and grades. The big advantage is the signal path is digital within and thus you have a much better output. As oppose from going from digital to analog back to digital and out to analog.

B]So the answer to the amps is, reserved decision.[/B]

With regards, to the DSP's the JBL MS-8 is done as far as I know, but you can still find it. Harman blew it with that. Their was no reason in the world they could not make another version with no internal amps and 10 channels of full processing access. The only other unit is the Alpine geared only for 5.1 with access to processing with limitation in the setup. But, Audiofrog is suppose to come out with a product better than the MS-8.

Audiofrog Debuts Multiseat Stereo | ceoutlook.com

As my writeup indicates that I have 2 DSP's, the 3.sixty.3 is used for my fine tuning were the MS-8 fails in that respect for me. The 3.sixty.3 for me, did not live up to expectations and has problems. So the question becomes do I replace with the Helix DSP PRO, a combo unit or wait for the Audiofrog and redo it again?

B]So the answer to the DSP's is, waiting to see what Audiofrog has to offer.[/B]

The aftermarket headunit Pioneer AppRadio 3 is still working. But I still want to jump to CarPlay. As I posted in the CarPlay thread many times, until more 3rd party navi apps have to appear before I make the move. I might just go for the Pioneer 4200 Nex and run in the AppRadio Mode.

My personal opinion on dealing with the 8.4 Uconnect system is to have 2 or more DSP's for a surround sound 7.1 system. The first DSP is the JL Audio Flex 82 to clean up the signal in order to start fresh. From that point, their are many ways to process from here. The Audiofrog might be the answer when it gets released. Or find MS-8 and combine that with the combo unit of the DSP/AMP.

Hope this helps.

Best for now.

 

Greetings,

After thinking about your question since it was first time anybody asked me if I would do it over again the same way, it still a very good question.

The most important speaker that I can not stress enough about for a surround sound sound quality mobile audio system is the tweeter. In our situation we need only a single pair for the tweeter in the vehicle. A ribbon tweeter is out of the question with is axis problems as of now. The beryllium tweeter is another fine option. But the ring radiator tweeter from HAT and it's price point was the perfect solution for me. The L1 Pro R2 tweeter controls off axis response better than previous tweeters of this type for mobile audio. Even Polk gave up on it years ago.

Equally important speaker was the L3SE from HAT that is my center and rear pillar. This was a total surprise in the detail of the sound. This is a wide band full range speaker that can serve many different purposes. As I mentioned in my writeup, the proper crossover setting is the key. My recommendation is to setup as band-pass type if the aftermarket DSP has that function. HAT drivers are the same as home audio hi-end drivers.

So the answer to the speakers is, YES, I would use HAT again.

Thank you SO MUCH for the thoughtful response. All of your posts I have seen always have quality information as well as well thought out responses. It's nice to have someone that actually knows what they are talking about that is willing to help others.

I am very much liking all of the reviews of the HATs. I am going to check out a local dealer for those, I actually emailed HAT themselves and suggested a few other dealers in my area for them to contact in efforts to carry their product line as there are not many places to go in south east florida (Only one near Miami but a few in the Tampa area). They were very responsive and actually happy to contact a few local shops I suggested that would be good partners, hoping to hear back some good news in the next week or so.

Back to the speakers themselves, I am wondering, in your opinion what is the quality difference for their Stage V and Stage VI speakers? I noticed you used the Stage VI Lagatia SE, as they are about twice the price, are they noticeably better than the standard Stage V Lagatia's? Also does that JL Audio stealth box actually hit hard as it is only a 10"? I like a lot of 80's and 90's rock, but I like to hear the drums hit pretty hard.

As for the amps, Pioneer does not make that line any longer and it is a shame. The amps are incredible. The JL Audio amps would be the replacement. However, HAT amps are coming to the market and my feeling is that are going to a major impact on the market. Just as Focal speakers and amps are. Personally, I am fine with Class D amps.

The big question for amps today is whether to go with a combo unit consisting of DSP/AMP. This has steadily been available from manufactures at all different price points and grades. The big advantage is the signal path is digital within and thus you have a much better output. As oppose from going from digital to analog back to digital and out to analog.


So the answer to the amps is, reserved decision.

With regards, to the DSP's the JBL MS-8 is done as far as I know, but you can still find it. Harman blew it with that. Their was no reason in the world they could not make another version with no internal amps and 10 channels of full processing access. The only other unit is the Alpine geared only for 5.1 with access to processing with limitation in the setup. But, Audiofrog is suppose to come out with a product better than the MS-8.

Audiofrog Debuts Multiseat Stereo | ceoutlook.com

As my writeup indicates that I have 2 DSP's, the 3.sixty.3 is used for my fine tuning were the MS-8 fails in that respect for me. The 3.sixty.3 for me, did not live up to expectations and has problems. So the question becomes do I replace with the Helix DSP PRO, a combo unit or wait for the Audiofrog and redo it again?

So the answer to the DSP's is, waiting to see what Audiofrog has to offer.

For the Helix combo Amp & DSP, are you referring to this unit:
Helix P SIX DSP MK2
Helix P SIX DSP MK2 6-channel car amplifier with digital signal processing — 120 watts RMS x 6 at Crutchfield.com

For the JL Audio amp, their current lineup only has these for 6 channel or 8 channel amps:

XD800/8v2
XD800/8v2 - Car Audio - Amplifiers - XD - JL Audio


XD600/6v2
XD600/6v2 - Car Audio - Amplifiers - XD - JL Audio


That looks pretty nice, although I saw on ebay the MS-8 used going for about $120 - $160, given the price for that and a JL Audio amp vs the Helix Amp & DSP combo, would you recommend the Helix combo or the used MS-8 and JL Audio amp? For the cost, the MS-8 and JL Audio route would be half the cost of the Helix, however if the Helix would result in a better sound and tuning ability to me it's worth it.

The aftermarket headunit Pioneer AppRadio 3 is still working. But I still want to jump to CarPlay. As I posted in the CarPlay thread many times, until more 3rd party navi apps have to appear before I make the move. I might just go for the Pioneer 4200 Nex and run in the AppRadio Mode.

My personal opinion on dealing with the 8.4 Uconnect system is to have 2 or more DSP's for a surround sound 7.1 system. The first DSP is the JL Audio Flex 82 to clean up the signal in order to start fresh. From that point, their are many ways to process from here. The Audiofrog might be the answer when it gets released. Or find MS-8 and combine that with the combo unit of the DSP/AMP.

Hope this helps.

Best for now.

As for Android Auto experience, I'm thinking of going this route:
Uconnect 8.4 Android System | Sweden Car Performance

Otherwise I could just hold off a few months to see if FCA delivers on the promise to release the updated headunit with higher resolution and Android Auto ability.